Latest post Tue, Jun 22 2021 5:46 PM by Mercer. 26 replies.
Page 2 of 2 (27 items) < Previous 1 2
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Fri, Jun 18 2021 6:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    jef:
    if the animation vendor could not provide P3, what DID they provide?

    They're providing Rec. 709 DNxHD AAFs, which will import without issue, even in my DCI-P3 project. It's the export back to the vendor (of which we'll be doing hundreds) that I am really asking about—wanting to go straight from Avid, rather than make a DNxHR and then convert in a third-party app. Not seeing any way to do that without a LUT, though.

  • Fri, Jun 18 2021 9:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Why not export as a Rec.2020 that can contain P3 and have room to spare.

    HP Z840 3.1GHZ 20cores 128GB RAM M4000 GPU 1TB NVMe drive HP Z book 17 G2 2.7GHZ Quad core 32GB RAM Nvidia K3100M 1TB SSD drive ACI Moderator. I'm... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  Avid Certified Instructor VET

     

    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

    All bespoke and delivered onsite at yours. Or delivered via hosted Zoom session.

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet-training.co.uk | W www.vet-training.co.uk |

     

  • Fri, Jun 18 2021 9:38 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    I'm on 2021.6 and I can export a .mov in DNxHR at DCI-P3

    HP Z840 3.1GHZ 20cores 128GB RAM M4000 GPU 1TB NVMe drive HP Z book 17 G2 2.7GHZ Quad core 32GB RAM Nvidia K3100M 1TB SSD drive ACI Moderator. I'm... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  Avid Certified Instructor VET

     

    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

    All bespoke and delivered onsite at yours. Or delivered via hosted Zoom session.

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet-training.co.uk | W www.vet-training.co.uk |

     

  • Sun, Jun 20 2021 5:06 PM In reply to

    • jef
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 26 2006
    • Maryland
    • Posts 3,894
    • Points 46,985

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Ok, some thoughts based on not knowing really anything about your project, your knowledge of Avid or your deliverables.  So please take no offense!!

    First, I worry when you write "import".  That term has gotten very dodgy in Avid over the last few years.  You write that the animation vendor is providing Rec. 708 DNxHD AAFs.  I would hope that these are in fact native Avid .mxf files and DNx 175x which are getting dropped directly into an Avid mediafile folder.  So no real issues of using the outdated "import" tool which CAN (depending on things) cause color shifts.

    If all of that is correct, I would choose to work in a Rec 709 project.  This is because the conversion from 709 to P3 is well documented and handled by several methods (see next paragraph).  Your question would be does Avid do it well.  Without the doc on the advanced colorspace tools that have not been distributed by Avid yet (at least that I can find) I would be suspect.

    For delivery I would be very curious / concerned about the codec requirements you are dealing with.  If the requirement is a DNxHD .mov I would be concerned as this turning into an old format.  Most groups these days want DNx as .mxf Op1a files. And if they accept that, DNx HR might also be on their radar.  I hope you have had a direct disscussion about this.  I find that written docs are often outdated these days.

    That said, I would probably make an AAF linking to the Avid media and take that it into Resolve to make a final P3 (hopefully 175x / HQx) version. Since you are at 1080, Resolve free would work.  And it is fast.

    Jef

    EDIT: To clarify.  I am sort of suggesting you use Resolve as your Export tool for Avid.  Now, this is not without challenges. You really need to learn and test the workflow, but depending on what tools you are using in your Avid project, this can work.

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Mon, Jun 21 2021 2:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    I appreciate everyone's comments and attempts to help! To boil it down for clarity, here's the question (I'm on 2021.6, for what it's worth):

    Can a DCI-P3 Avid project export a Rec. 709 DNxHD file? (I need this to deliver to the animation vendor per their spec.)

    The answer seems to be yes, but the conversion to Rec. 709 introduces a color cast. Given that, I decided to try putting a Color LUT effect on top of my sequence—however, I couldn't find a DCI-P3 to Rec. 709 LUT. I guess I'd have to stack them.

    The second question is:

    Is there harm in switching a DCI-P3 Avid project with a lot of existing media to Rec. 709 (e.g. in Settings->Format->Color Space)?

    I don't know the answer to this one.

    Jef, thanks for the helpful comments! Some responses:

    jef:
    You write that the animation vendor is providing Rec. 708 DNxHD AAFs.  I would hope that these are in fact native Avid .mxf files and DNx 175x which are getting dropped directly into an Avid mediafile folder.  So no real issues of using the outdated "import" tool which CAN (depending on things) cause color shifts.

    The animation vendor is delivering AAF-wrapped DNxHD 36 clips. This is the most common approach in animation studios. Can native MXF files carry custom Avid bin column metadata?

    jef:
    For delivery I would be very curious / concerned about the codec requirements you are dealing with.  If the requirement is a DNxHD .mov I would be concerned as this turning into an old format.  Most groups these days want DNx as .mxf Op1a files. And if they accept that, DNx HR might also be on their radar.

    Editorial won't actually be handling delivery. Since it's an animated film, delivery will come out of the grading suite via probably something like an EXR image sequence. So we're good there—Editorial will only be delivering temp/proxy outputs for various approvals and individuals along the way.

    jef:
    I would probably make an AAF linking to the Avid media and take that it into Resolve to make a final P3 (hopefully 175x / HQx) version. Since you are at 1080, Resolve free would work.

    This is interesting! I don't have any experience with Resolve, but I definitely get the idea: Resolve is likely to more accurately proecess color than Avid.

    Thanks again!

    - David

  • Mon, Jun 21 2021 6:56 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
    • UK
    • Posts 687
    • Points 8,835

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    David, it's still very confusing - what is your actual delivery specs? You talk of EXR and then DNxHD 709. EXR could be an ACES export format for IMF or DCI DCP or anything and DNxHD is a delivery mastering format for HDTV - so do you have two delivery targets? The whole project should have been maintained in Rec. 709 from what I can see, yet you said earlier you have to deliver DCI-P3? What you shouldn't be doing is applying luts without really understanding these kind of differences. If you need to deliver both a DCI-P3 and a DNxHD rec. 709 master then you need some kind of managed, calibrated workflow, like ACES, dare I say. But perhaps show us your delivery specs, if you can and we could help further.

    Sorry to interject - I'll let Jeff answer the specifc questions you posed.

    MC with Symphony option, 2021.6, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jun 21 2021 9:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Mercer:
    David, it's still very confusing - what is your actual delivery specs?

    Sorry for the confusion! Animation editorial is a bit of a niche in the industry. For all intents and purposes, editorial's delivery spec is an EDL. The animation vendor will render the shots and pass the frames (EXR or something similar) to the colorist, and from there it will go to mastering. Final delivery spec from mastering will be 2K DCI-P3, likely HDR10+/Dolby Vision/HLG, Rec. 709 for HD, and likely other formats. But that's all out of editorial's hands.

    In the end, my project should have been in Rec. 709. I had hoped when starting it that the animation vendor would be intersted in sending us lit shots in P3 to allow greater color fidelity in editorial (while still understanding that it's only a proxy). Since we work with storyboards for the first year before any animation work is actually started, we had time for a lot of media to build up in our DCI-P3 Avid project before the vendor told us that thy would only give us Rec. 709. Hence my dilemma—do I stay in P3, or switch to 709? And if I switch to 709, how will it affect all of the media I already have in the project?

    Hope that clarifies!

    - David

  • Mon, Jun 21 2021 9:59 PM In reply to

    • jef
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 26 2006
    • Maryland
    • Posts 3,894
    • Points 46,985

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    dcondolora:

    And if I switch to 709, how will it affect all of the media I already have in the project?

    I guess it comes down to whether new media was created inside Avid in the P3 Project.  Did you tweak colors and render or mixdown?

    If it were me I would backup the project and the switch to 709 and take a look at things.

    But, if I understand things now, all of this would just be for editorial / client review of the offline.  All final color work will be done in a color system such as Resolve. And Resolve will not get ANY color changes that were done in Resolve.

    Here is where I see that you are now.  You don't trust what Avid is doing in the way of conversion to P3.  You weren't delivered P3, only Rec 709.  What you are looking at is not final color - that is happening elsehwere.

    I understand you want to be able to evaluate the color you are getting from the animation vendor. The only really solid way - in my opinion - would be to switch to Rec 709 and clean up the project as needed.  The clips delivered by the animation vendor will not have been changed.  They may have various color adjustments added in each clips Source Settings.  But that is easily and quickly fixable.

    This is something you can experiment with easily and (as long as the project is backed up before you start) the experiment can be abandoned if desired.

    Good luck!

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Tue, Jun 22 2021 6:47 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
    • UK
    • Posts 687
    • Points 8,835

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    David, I think Jef is absolutely right - it appears from what you say that you are not ultimately responsible for finishing? Therefore this is something the colourist/finishing facility will and can sort. The only mistake as I can see you made is to assume that a DCI-P3 colourspace would give you 'more colours'. It doesn't work like that especially if you are handed rec. 709 sources in the first place. As Jef said, for editing and prep offline, stick/go back to rec. 709. The finishing grade will take responsibility for the different delivery colourspaces and formats, one of which appears to be DCI 2K DCP - very often the sources for these are good old rec. 709, in the first place.

    Here often in the UK the offline editors forget to apply logs to the various footage, especially if they are not applied automatically in Avid, because they simply don't know about them (I always do but then I both offline and online). They continue cutting with a very flat looking picture and then sometimes just apply an overall colour correction, thinking the camera people made a mistake. It all gets sorted out in the online and nobody blames the editor.Yes

    MC with Symphony option, 2021.6, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Jun 22 2021 3:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Mercer:
    The only mistake as I can see you made is to assume that a DCI-P3 colourspace would give you 'more colours'. It doesn't work like that especially if you are handed rec. 709 sources in the first place. As Jef said, for editing and prep offline, stick/go back to rec. 709.

    Yep, I think you're right. The hope was that the animation vendor would give us renders in P3 colorspace, but that ended up not happening. And I didn't know as much about color at that point as I do now (and I still have a lot to learn!).

    I duplicated the project and tested switch between color spaces. Aside from having to change the "Display Color Space" in the Source/Record monitors, there was no difference. I think we'll end up making the switch to Rec. 709.

    Thanks for the help, all!

    - David 

  • Tue, Jun 22 2021 4:13 PM In reply to

    • jef
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 26 2006
    • Maryland
    • Posts 3,894
    • Points 46,985

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Color management is one of the most involved and difficult areas in the video business currently.  I have been trying to educate myself about HDR recently.  That is a whole extra level!!

    Glad the switch test worked out.  You now have one less thing to worry about.  Big Smile

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Tue, Jun 22 2021 5:46 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
    • UK
    • Posts 687
    • Points 8,835

    Re: Export DNxHD from a P3 Project?

    Glad it worked David, all the bestYes

    MC with Symphony option, 2021.6, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
Page 2 of 2 (27 items) < Previous 1 2

© Copyright 2011 Avid Technology, Inc.  Terms of Use |  Privacy Policy |  Site Map |  Find a Reseller