Latest post Mon, Aug 30 2010 10:30 PM by Larry Rubin. 47 replies.
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  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 3:07 PM

    Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    1) I just spent the better part of the weekend shopping around big box computer stores, looking for a reasonably priced computer that would qualify to run MC 5, instead of limping along on my totally unqualified HP laptop. Absolutely no go. Why? Not one single computer, HP, Dell or any other has a NVIDIA quadro card installed. What's more, all the NVIDIA cards for sale in the graphics card section were some flavor of GE Force or another. Again, NO QUADRO cards. Is Avid development and engineering even paying attention of what's going on in the computer retail world, especially as it pertains to available graphics cards? If quadro cards are on their way out, WHY DOESN'T AVID QUALIFY A CARD YOU CAN GET? It's crazy to think that to get a qualified graphics card, you would need to go to ebay to find a used one. Further, if Avid is really serious about capturing the prosumer and semi-pro editing markets, they need to loosen up their overly stringent system requirements and develop software that will run on the average, middle of the line computers ($1,000 to $2,000) that are now being sold. (I don't think it's realistic to ever expect a bargain basement computer to run this software, however.) It's ridiculous to have to spend anywhere from $3,000 to $6,000 for a box that meets the current requirements which forces you into the expensive business platform environment, with what appears to be an outdated, soon to be end of life quadro card. Aren't the newest ATI radeon cards up to the task by now? It's time re-evaluate and bring those system requirements into the 21st century. Avid needs to pay closer attention to where the graphics card market currently is and where it is headed in the future. And that future does NOT appear to include NVIDIA quadro cards.

    2) Given the extremely tedious, confusing and convoluted Avid procedure for uninstalling MC software and the difficulties many users have experienced with it, I would like to see Avid develop an online software removal tool that the customer could use that will do all the uninstall steps for you. Nortons has this and it works very well indeed. Takes the burden off the customer and make his/her life easier.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 4:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    Form many of the reasons you posted is exactly why I ditched my PC and went Mac when I upgraded from XpressPro to Media Composer in 2008.  I knew that I could buy just about any Mac "off the shelf" and it would run MC.  It has and it's been great.  I don't think I could ever go back to fiddling with all the PC component variables just to get a "qualified system".  

     

     

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 7:53 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    Larry Rubin:
    I would like to see Avid develop an online software removal tool that the customer could use that will do all the uninstall steps for you
    Dont  you mean put back what they had for years Larry????? 

    Avid used to be the easiest to upgrade. Pop in the disk select install. Nice little splash screen found earlier version uninstalling. Now installing new version. Flash Dongle  Done,

    Larry Rubin:
    ATI radeon cards up to the task by now?
    The new expensive ATI Radeon here in an on air 24 hour delivery CPU is a piece of useless relatively unconfigurable excretement.

    For me much of the video card problems revolve around the two OS's requiring "anti piracy" features involving the video cards being able to throttle certain digital playback if they decide the content may be suspect. As usual the backroom designers dont seem to have a broad enough picture of the formats genuine content producers want to use.  (remind you of the latest Avid UI designers??)

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 8:08 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    Larry Rubin:

    1) I just spent the better part of the weekend shopping around big box computer stores, looking for a reasonably priced computer that would qualify to run MC 5, instead of limping along on my totally unqualified HP laptop. Absolutely no go. Why? Not one single computer, HP, Dell or any other has a NVIDIA quadro card installed.

    Did someone hack your account and post this Larry?  I always belived you to be a proponant of using a qualified system.

    Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option Win7x64 Pro HP zBook 15" Laptop - 16GB RAM (2nd System) Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option - HP z420... [view my complete system specs]

     The FunkyDragon 

    Happy Editing!

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 8:09 PM In reply to

    • videoguy
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Plainview, NY
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    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    The Quadro FX1800 and 3800 cards are available from Videoguys, B&H and many other on line vendors. While the FX1800 isn't cheap, it's a solid card for use with MC5 and it's well under $500. The FX3800 is closer to $900, but it's not necessary for MC5. If you do lots of compositing or plan on running CS5 (AE or Premiere), the FX3800 is worth stepping up to.

    Gary

    Media Composer 3.5 ASUS P6X58D-E w/ Intel i7 980 Hex-core, 24GB RAM, PNY Quadro4000, Win7, SATA Boot drive, G-Speed eS for video [view my complete system specs]

    Videoguys.com 800 323-2325 http://www.videoguys.com We are the Digital Video Editing & DVD Production Experts

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 8:31 PM In reply to

    • BarkinMadd
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Nov 4 2005
    • Ontario, Canada
    • Posts 4,681
    • Points 61,190

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    What's more, the Quadro cards are Workstation-class cards - you won't find these in a big-box store.

    Are they necessary for MC? I don't think so from a technical point of view (although Avid would have to invest more money into supporting a broader range of hardware to accomplish what Larry has suggested).

    Cheers

    Camera(s) PXW-X70, HDR-FX1, Hero 6 Black | MC 2019.7 | QT 7.7.9 | Continuum 2019 | Sapphire 2019 | Mocha Pro 2019 | Titler Pro 6 | Windows 10 Pro x64 ... [view my complete system specs]

    Steve

    ______________________

    www.nelliedogstudios.com

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 8:41 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    That fact that Quadro FX Series cards are not available in retail stores doesn't indicate they are "outdated, soon to be end of life".  If they are, I haven't heard about it.  Meanwhile, other hardware we use is also not avalbale in retail stores.  These components are "pro" not "consumer".  nVidia's implementaion of OGL works well for Avid, and that's why they spec'ed that series of card.  My understanding is that ATI's OGL is different, and in a way that Avid doesn't perform as well.

    I think this thread speaks more to whether Avid's tested hardware meets the needs of the boutique/independant/hobbyist/student.  Post houses and facilcities have no issue with the required hardware.  We either buy direct from HP or through major resellers such as CDW, etc.  At $2,500 for the software, and thousands for peripherals, cameras, decks, etc., I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the hardware requirements should be somewhat higher.  And, as the world goes all HD, the CPU/GPU power required will just get more and more demanding.

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 8:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    Randall L Rike:
    I think this thread speaks more to whether Avid's tested hardware meets the needs of the boutique/independant/hobbyist/student.  Post houses and facilcities have no issue with the required hardware.

    That's the thing, Randy, and I don't feel like Avid's got a good handle on meeting the needs of both of those customers.

    Carl

    Media Composer 2019.7 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Envy 17t-j100 Quad Edition laptop, Windows 10 Pro, Intel Core i7 2.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce GT... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 9:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    "... on meeting the needs of both of those customers ..."

    Can they?  At the same time?  Or should the customer buying a $2,500 software app expect to have to buy a higher-end system to run it on? 

    BTW, HP has z400's for under $2,000 in their Business Outlet Store that will run MC nicely:

    HP z400 XPV X W3550 QC 3.06GHz 300GB 4GB DDR3 1333 DVDRW(LS) NVIDIA Quadro FX3800 1GB Rmkt WS

    1-year warranty: $1,799.00

    3-year warranty: $1,998.00

    HP z400 XPV X W3540 QC 2.93GHz 250GB SATA 1GB DDR3 1333 DVDRW(LS) Quadro FX4800 1.5GB Rmkt WS

    1-year warranty: $2,199.00

    3-year warranty: $2,398.00

    These, to me, are not an unreasonable prices for a system that will run MC.

    I'd increase the RAM, add a few 2TB internal drives, and get a copy of Win 7 Pro x64 .....

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 10:32 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    Sadly the z400 only has 2 drive bays.  but it is a good system capable of doing MOST workflows. 

    Plus people are complaining that their custom built computers can't play cannon MP4 files smoothly.  I seriously doubt that whatever consumer class CPU off the shelf has the Horse Power to handle that, let alone RED.

    Oh, and if you're a student, or want a "cheap" computer, buy a Mac.  Cause, you know,  "Macs are cheap" Stick out tongue

    Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option Win7x64 Pro HP zBook 15" Laptop - 16GB RAM (2nd System) Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option - HP z420... [view my complete system specs]

     The FunkyDragon 

    Happy Editing!

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 10:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    FunkyDragon:

    Did someone hack your account and post this Larry?  I always believed you to be a proponent of using a qualified system.

    I am, but a qualified system shouldn't have to break the financial back of the one man band owner, who's pockets are not nearly as deep as the budget of a multi-room facility's are. There should be a middle ground here somewhere. It just doesn't make sense to me that Avid wants to court the small one-man band operations but expects that they will be comfortable with spending twice as much (or more) as the software for a platform capable of running it. I'd love to run MC 5 at home and use it for personal reasons (which I can't do at the Pentagon Channel), but I simply cannot spend $3,000 to $6,000 to do so.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 10:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    Randall:

    Thanks for the tip about the outlet store. I will take a look over there. Aren't most (if not all) of their merchandise, machines that are refurbished, not new? So far, the prices I've been seeing on Z400s and Z800s have been quite steep. However, I still believe that Avid needs to make a version of Composer that will run on the typical mid line computers that you find in a retail environment, if they truly intend to make significant marketing inroads into the "Non-broadcast" and "Non-hollywood" category of editors (people, that is). Such a product with "lighter" requirements has to potential of opening the market floodgates in a very dynamic way. For example, if Avid can support the GE Force cards on the Mac side of Composer, why can't they find a way to support them on the PC side? GE Force cards are all over the place and easily available.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 11:28 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    "... machines that are refurbished, not new? ..."

    Correct, but with full warranties.  I've bought lots of these and never had an issue.

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 11:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    "... I still believe that Avid needs to make a version of Composer that will run on the typical mid line computers ..."

    They're only going to write one set of code ....

    So, the question to Avid software engineers is ... can they create a version of the software that is powerful enough to do uncompressed 4:4:4 or with multplie streams of HD, and still be able to run on an entry-level system with ATI or G-Force graphics cards?

    Then, the question to the users that bought that entry-level system ... will they promise to not complain if/when the system is sluggish, crashes, or generally can't keep up with what they're trying to do?

    My fear is that they'll buy the entry-level system, then come here to the forum ranting about how much Avid sucks because it can't do what they want.  Remember, many of them aren't reading the ReadMe or System Requirements now!

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Mon, Jul 12 2010 11:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Bringing Composer into the Real World of the 21st Century

    Randall L Rike:

    My fear is that they'll buy the entry-level system, then come here to the forum ranting about how much Avid sucks because it can't do what they want.  Remember, many of them aren't reading the ReadMe or System Requirements now!

    I know, but it really is astonishing, if you are not a full fledged post business, how much you need to spend on a computer to run Composer and be supported. Not to mention the matrox box, monitors, etc. And I was very careful to say "mid line computers", not bargain basement entry level boxes. In order for Avid to move continually move forward in the marketing arena, I see finding this middle ground as a necessary and inevitable step. And if they do, it could be a big boost to sales and revenue.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

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