Latest post Sat, Apr 24 2010 3:33 PM by OliverPeters. 104 replies.
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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 12:48 AM In reply to

    • switthaus
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    Marianna:
    What I can say is …….. there are NO plans to merge Media Composer and Symphony in the near or long term and there IS development and progress behind the walls of Avid for the future.

     

    Thanks Marianna -

    That certainly clears things up and should give the Symphony user base some confidence moving forward.  Thanks again.

     

    sw

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 1:05 AM In reply to

    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    Been kinda out of the loop this week - crazy deadline and now a Long Weekend here in Oz - so I was waiting for more time to clarify some of the points I made earlier.  But that all seems like such a long time ago now!

    I wanted to thanks Marianna on clarifying a few things for the users.  I know there's only a limited amount you can talk about 'in the future' but this is a big relief for a lot of people.

    I truly believe there is room enough for both a kick-ass MC and a more "Finishing" Symphony.

    Avid really pulled the rabbit out of the hat with MC5 - no question.  I'd like to now believe they'll do the same with Symph6.  At least I genuinely have hope.

    Ra-ey

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 1:09 AM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    editdudes:
    If you can't use masks in the main CC and can't even color correct the fill of a key separately without standing on your head, then Symphony unfortunately is no match for the competition.

     

    You keep saying this, but I have no problem CCing the fill of a key. What am I missing here?

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 2:48 AM In reply to

    • mrmikster
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    I thought there was a method to do this. However, I've completely forgotten. Could you explain the steps Terry?

    When I key an image then want to grade just the key fill, it affects the backplate, if I step in and grade in the nest, it affects the image pre-key. What is the secret sauce I'm missing? Is it the type of effect CC vs Color Effect that does the trick.

     

    Thanks

    Michael Forrest

    "There are no rules for the brave". Albert Einstein

  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 3:53 AM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    mrmikster:
    When I key an image then want to grade just the key fill, it affects the backplate, if I step in and grade in the nest, it affects the image pre-key.

     

    okay, I think I get the disconnect. You are doing something like a luma or chroma key. I was thinking matte key. Matte keys are easy as an actual matte is created and messing with the fill doesn't affect the keying ability.

     

    If you are using luma or chroma keyers, you are correct, there is no way to affect the "fill" which is also the key source without affecting the key.

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 3:58 AM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    Hey Michael,

     

         How does DS handle this? Does it create a matte with a luma key and then allow you to affect the "fill" without affecting the matte? Or would you have to use an effects tree to do this?

     

    This is actually an interesting problem. You could create a matte with BCC or Sapphire and then stack a CC in there but that would be a major PITA.

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 7:14 AM In reply to

    • mrmikster
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    DS doesn't consider the backplate as part of the keyed image. Add a CC post matte and only the keyed image is affected, same with any other effect. If you want to affect both the key and plate, either place them in a container, or apply a timeline effect over that area. It really allows a lot of flexibility. With the container mode, you can add effects only to the key, the plate or both. Or, for a more elegant solution, a tree can also be added pre or post matte.

    On my last Composer job, we couldn't figure this out, so we just left the footage as it was. Bummer, Saphire would be okay if it didn't take so long to render.

    Michael Forrest

    "There are no rules for the brave". Albert Einstein

  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 7:34 AM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    Agreed Michael. If it's a matte key. you can tweak the fill to your hearts content. Life is good.

     

    The trick is getting the "Matte" in MC/ Symphony. The Avid model was not based upon pulling the key as a separate element, but rather creating the final comp. In that sense, it does what it does well, but you can't create separate elements that are now individually tweakable in that scenario.

     

    Looking from a linear online perspective, this makes complete sense. Looking from a current world effects model, it doesn't.

     

    :-(

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 7:36 AM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    PS: I've always said DS was a better compositor, but so is FCP. How do we get the best of both worlds.

     

    (And Vegas' insane performance)

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 8:21 AM In reply to

    • mrmikster
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    Well that's today's world, the clients get used to having it all, and at half the price... if you're lucky.

     

    Michael Forrest

    "There are no rules for the brave". Albert Einstein

  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:34 AM In reply to

    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    Marianna:
    ...

    The Symphony Nitris DX v5 will be able to utilize it's advanced color correction tools in full HD RGB 4:4:4 and in real time to master to dual link HD to HDCAM-SR in the correct color space. In addition, Symphony is one of the only systems capable of conforming any file based project; including RED, XDCAM HD, P2, Canon and QuickTime. Combine the Universal Mastering and Advanced Color Correction with the new HD RGB color space and native file based finishing and processing and you end up with one of the best finishing solutions for any HD project.

    What I can say is …….. there are NO plans to merge Media Composer and Symphony in the near or long term and there IS development and progress behind the walls of Avid for the future.

    And to Terry’s point in an earlier post ….   You “KNOW” I can’t say anything about futures.

    Marianna

    Marianna,

    Thank you for the reply and for wading through this after NAB!

    What you are reading is not only ten years of frustration, but what seems to frustration over a blind spot in Avid's vision. You guys have done a great job recently:

    Quickly support new formats: Done! The Canon 24F experience really seems like a thing of the past thanks to AMA.

    Improve audio editing. Done! Real-time Audio Suite effects stackable five deep. Bravo!

    4:4:4 RGB export. Brilliant. You guys rocked!

    BUT Avid seems to completely misunderstand the value of Symphony and DS. You have guys like Terry and Mike begging, clamoring, praying and wishing for more features so Avid can... finish more features.

    And that's the value of DS and Symphony. It's not in how many you sell. You'll never sell enough to cover the costs. It's that by having DS and Symphony as cutting edge finishing systems you'll be giving legions of editors more reason to cut on MC.

    The main argument for Symphony and DS is that there is NO EDL. This helps both the editor and the finisher (most of the times). And if you can save finishers time, they will be willing to pay a premium.

    It's late and I'm tired but I hope this makes sense. Avid needs DS and Symphony. They should not be viewed as parts that kind of fit, kind of overlap, don't really honestly know where they'd go if we started from scratch. They should be developed as integral parts of Avid's current strategy, not as appendices from years gone by.

    Let's not forget, it's a lot easier for Avid to make a daVinci than for Black Magic to make an Avid. Having vertical integration makes the argument to cut and finish on Avid very compelling. Because it saves time. And time is money. So if you can save the editor and finisher time, you can charge more.

    Anyway, good luck, Godbless and thanks for all your help Wink.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 2:19 PM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    mrmikster:
    Well that's today's world, the clients get used to having it all, and at half the price... if you're lucky.

     

    You get half?!?!?! Man you are lucky! :-/

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 3:10 PM In reply to

    • editdudes
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    TCurren:

    This is actually an interesting problem. You could create a matte with BCC or Sapphire and then stack a CC in there but that would be a major PITA.

    Yes, it can be done by duplicating the source clip, add a key effect (like spectramatte), setting the keyer to show alpha and then add a matte key effect. Now you can cc the fill. Awkward, slow and with a bunch of limitations, but doable if you're out of options...

     

     

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  • Fri, Apr 23 2010 4:21 PM In reply to

    • mrmikster
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    That's pretty trick!!

    Thanks

    Michael Forrest

    "There are no rules for the brave". Albert Einstein

  • Sat, Apr 24 2010 3:33 PM In reply to

    • OliverPeters
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    Re: Symphony - In desperate need of some TLC

    Here's an interesting scenario. My friends in the DaVinci world (colorists, facility managers, engineers) are pretty nervous about the whole BMD acquisition and price drop. Biggest concern is lack of support, since the support contracts are gone. This is an area that Avid could capilatize on by improving the color grading tools in either Symphony or DS. You already have a strong hardware-optimized system and you have customers who already pay support contracts. Seems like an opportunity to pick up some of the high-end folks who potentially will defect from DaVinci. If Avid doesn't get them, others will (Quantel, Assimilate, Autodesk, Digital Vision). Yet another argument for improved finishing/color-grading tools from Avid.

    - Oliver

     

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