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  • Fri, Apr 16 2010 11:15 PM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    The BIG issue at Avid in terms of MC and Symphony is simple:  Do you hold back MC to make Symphony stand out more?

    In the past, Avid have tried to give Symphony features that make it different (Universal Mastering, Relationship CC, various I/O, and at one point HD ability etc... ) and all this was fine when there wasn't that much competition.

    Now with FCP Studio it's completely different.  In terms of CC alone.  Color is a great piece of software, and athough Apple 'aquired' it and it still has a whole I/O process from the timeline, more and more people are using it.  It's not as intergrated at the Avid CC, but it has a lot more features.  For me, this is Avid's big concern.  How many people on the MC forums are begging for Secondary CC and some Relationship CC.  On the Symphony forums it's 'power windows' and "being able to CC a key".  All can be done in FCP in one way or another.  Add to this Davinci Resolve, and it's clear Symphony needs an CC overhaul, and when this happens it will be pointless in not giving these features to MC.

    Making Symphony and MC 'different' seems to me to be redundant now.  I'd like to see the 'software' on both MC and Symphony to be the same, with identical features (with the exception of anything that needs a DX for Output: HD RGB 444, Universal Mastering etc...).  It would then be purely the 'hardware' that was different, the "grunt" power.  If you were in a Facility where you need to guarantee a show finishes on the hour, you'd buy a Symphony and be happy at the price; if you don't have that time restriction, then you wouldn't.  Simple as that.

    I'd like to see other 'hardware' items also be the distinction.  Hopefully with Avid's recent 'aquisition' we'll see an External Controller soon (not speculation, just a hope!).  If this is so, then if I was Avid I would do the following:

    Give it away 'free' with every new Symphony.  This would make the buying of a Symphony seem more like you're buying a finishing tool.

    Sell it at a massively reduced price for existing Symphony owners.

    Sell it full price for everyone else.

    That's my 2 cents worth anyway.  The future of Symphony should be hardware only (with separate some I/O abilities).

    Ra-ey

    Symphony Nitris v7, Media Composer v7, Artist Color, ISIS v4.1, Unity MediaNetwork v5.4, Sapphire v6.1, Boris Continuum Complete v8.1.1, AvidFX... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Fri, Apr 16 2010 11:18 PM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    TCurren:
    ... If Avid had come out with a new improved super CC for Symphony, you and I would be happy, but the vast user base of MC who don't touch the CC, would be asking for all the same things they have been asking for for many years. And Avid would have lost the spotlight to daVinci for 995.00 anyway.

    ...

    I agree with the reason for putting the emphasis on the MC upgrades (which are also Symphony upgrades). But Avid's larger strategy w/ Symphony (and DS) really baffles me.

    From my humble perspective, and please correct me if I'm wrong, there is one glaring bottleneck w/ daVinci and all these other finishing platforms: the EDL.

    MC has a sophisticated set of tools for effects, transitions, filters, titling, CC, etc., but when you go over to a daVinci, you have to make an EDL and all that work is gone. All those extra tools in MC are rendered (pun intended) useless.

    The selling point for Symphony and DS is that you can finish an existing Avid project and everything carries over. (I know conform is not always 100% in DS and it has its own interface and learning curve.)

    So if Symphony and DS were to have more top of the line finishing tools like better CC and control surfaces, then the argument to cut on MC becomes very compelling. But if all my work in MC5 is going to boil down to an EDL text file, then all those tools in MC are for naught.

    So I would think stronger Symphony and DS presences in the finishing world would help MC quite a bit.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Fri, Apr 16 2010 11:24 PM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    It appears that Davinci Resolve is only on Linux and Mac, no PC version. Is that correct?

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Fri, Apr 16 2010 11:51 PM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    Larry Rubin:

    It appears that Davinci Resolve is only on Linux and Mac, no PC version. Is that correct?

    Yes it is, unfortunately.

    Ra-ey

    Symphony Nitris v7, Media Composer v7, Artist Color, ISIS v4.1, Unity MediaNetwork v5.4, Sapphire v6.1, Boris Continuum Complete v8.1.1, AvidFX... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Fri, Apr 16 2010 11:56 PM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    Damn! OK, thanks Ra-ey.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Sat, Apr 17 2010 1:38 AM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    Regarding the discussions early on in this thread about comments on future product development and what information can and cannot be disclosed, here is the official Avid position on the subject:

    "Because Avid is a U.S. publicly traded company, we have to abide by certain accounting rules. These rules limit the ability of publicly traded companies to discuss product roadmaps, timetables, future features and functionality in public forums such as this one. Avid’s revenue recognition policies are in their Annual report (available at http://ir.avid.com/annuals.cfm). See page 55 of the 2009 Annual Report."

    Thanks, everyone. 

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Sat, Apr 17 2010 3:36 AM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    But Avid's larger strategy w/ Symphony (and DS) really baffles me.

     

     

    You're not alone. I understand the tightrope between development costs and revenue that Avid is walking, but a company that was founded and rose to the top of the market on technical innovation needs to keep that up if they want to continue to thrive. Currently, they seem to be betting heavily on internet based editing. I see this as a major factor in facilitating outsourcing..err, excuse me, "offshoring" our jobs. 

     

    The bottom line is we as finishing professionals have failed stupendously to educate our market in the need for our services. As a consequence, our futures really do look bleak. So Avid's apparent choice to not heavily invest in a tiny portion of the market that appears to be shrinking doesn't seem so stupid.

     

    Anyone can afford a pen and paper, but there are few great writers. We are aware of that because we are trained from the beginning of our education to recognize what good writing is. Who trains the public to recognize good color correction? This is why you can flip channels on cable and see video that will make you cringe.

    Symphony Nitris Classic, Symphony DX, MC Soft, MC Adrenaline, MC Adrenaline HD, Unity, Terrablock, ProTools [view my complete system specs]

    Terence Curren Alpha Dogs, Inc.

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  • Sat, Apr 17 2010 3:55 AM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    TCurren:

    Anyone can afford a pen and paper, but there are few great writers. We are aware of that because we are trained form the beginning of our education to recognize what is good writing. Who trains the public to recognize good color correction? This is why you can flip channels on cable and see video that will make you cringe.

    Very true, and not just cable, all TV.

    The flip side to it is also the fact that TV has massively changed as a medium over the last 10 years.  It used to be that a good budgeted show would be sent to either Telecine or have a Tape Suite Grade where you could take days.  Now there is simply no time/budget for that.  Shows have gotten a lot more complicated, and what is expected of the Online Editor can be everything from Motion GFX, Compositing and even Audio Mixing.  I'm not saying that this didn't happen 10 years ago, it's just a lot more expected now.  The Grade is actually the last thing I do on an Online because, being blunt, its the only element that I can literally fit to whatever time I have left in the Online.  The rest of the Online takes as long as it takes (i.e. Supers, Reformatting, Credits, Sync-checking etc...).  Grading is the one thing that you could spend an hour or 5 days on.  I've worked on shows where I've literally had to do a Grade in an hour for a one hour show.  My normal schedule allows one day of Grading for a One hour show (2 days if I'm lucky).  And I know from my friends that this is actually unusual these days.  They get less time.  It's insane, but there you go.  1000 shots in a day on average.

    Add to that that people are far more used to watching images in crappy resolution (YouTube, Torrents) and you can see that things are probably not gonna get any better.  It's a real shame, but true.

    Ra-ey

    Symphony Nitris v7, Media Composer v7, Artist Color, ISIS v4.1, Unity MediaNetwork v5.4, Sapphire v6.1, Boris Continuum Complete v8.1.1, AvidFX... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sat, Apr 17 2010 11:35 AM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    TCurren:

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    But Avid's larger strategy w/ Symphony (and DS) really baffles me.

    You're not alone. I understand the tightrope between development costs and revenue that Avid is walking, but a company that was founded and rose to the top of the market on technical innovation needs to keep that up if they want to continue to thrive. Currently, they seem to be betting heavily on internet based editing. I see this as a major factor in facilitating outsourcing..err, excuse me, "offshoring" our jobs. 

    The bottom line is we as finishing professionals have failed stupendously to educate our market in the need for our services. As a consequence, our futures really do look bleak. So Avid's apparent choice to not heavily invest in a tiny portion of the market that appears to be shrinking doesn't seem so stupid.

    Anyone can afford a pen and paper, but there are few great writers. We are aware of that because we are trained from the beginning of our education to recognize what good writing is. Who trains the public to recognize good color correction? This is why you can flip channels on cable and see video that will make you cringe.

    Terry, you give me way too much credit. Finishing is not my job. I had an idea for a documentary film and bought Avid and Vegas. And as much as I wanted to like Vegas, and DO think it's interface handles things like docking windows and resizing and Firewire capture MUCH BETTER, Avid was just more intuitive for me. But I'm a teacher who used to work in finance. I'm not a professional editor or finisher. But I have seen a fair number of businesses succeed, turnaround or fail. So Avid resonates w/ me on numerous levels.

    IMHO, if Avid sees Symphony and DS as self-supporting apps, then they will under-develop and eventually kill them. Maybe this what's happening(?) It would be huge mistake.

    Symphony and DS should be positioned as finishing applications that make choosing MC over FCP, CS?, Vegas, Edius, etc. a no brainer.

    Cut and do a rough cut finish in MC and bring the entire project to a Symphony or DS house for top-of-the-line finishing. No EDL, no dicking around with recreating anything. Even if my color correction, transitions, audio keyframes suck. So what? Let me believe they could work. As long as I know they are there for the finisher to look at, even if 90% of them they are eventually KO'd, I'll be happy.

    DaVinci/BM can't make a full featured NLE, but Avid could make a daVinci during a weekend. They essentially have made two already in Symphony and DS... they just need to add some features.

    So it's a matter of will, not ability, for Avid. But if Avid sees Symphony and DS as stand alone products that need to support their own development costs, then they will neglect and eventually EOL them. But if Avid sees them as the carrot at the end of the production chain that causes people to choose to use MC for cutting, then these products have very big value.

    When I went to EVS in Burbank a few years ago looking to buy a camera, we started talking about editing software. The salesman told me "You could probably cut your documentary on Sony Movie Studio, but what are you going to do about all the stuff that doesn't transfer over? About 90% will, but 10% won't. And you're going to have to deal with that 10%." This is when I decided to stick w/ Avid even though FCP and Adobe were making huge inroads.

    It seems that's the argument for making Symphony and DS into widely accepted finishing tools seen on par w/ the likes of daVinci. From the "indie" editor's perspective: Cut and try your best in MC and you know all your efforts will be carried over to Symphony or DS. And from the finisher's perspective, get an MC project and you won't have to deal w/ an EDL or spend time recreating stuff that's already done.

    I wholehearedly believe Symphony and DS are important parts to Avid's road map, but only if they are moved into the full-fledged finishing realm. I know you do high-end finishing w/ Symphony and can run circles around many a daVinci operator, but you are not the norm.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Sat, Apr 17 2010 3:20 PM In reply to

    • switthaus
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    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    Ra-ey Saleh:
    Do you hold back MC to make Symphony stand out more?

    Avid tried to do this with Xpress and Media Composer and it failed.  Xpress was killed.

    Ra-ey Saleh:
    I'd like to see the 'software' on both MC and Symphony to be the same, with identical features (with the exception of anything that needs a DX for Output: HD RGB 444, Universal Mastering etc...).  It would then be purely the 'hardware' that was different, the "grunt" power. 

    Why have two products at all?  Merge the software and then choose your poison for IO.  It just makes sense.

    Ra-ey Saleh:

    Sell it at a massively reduced price for existing Symphony owners.

    Sell it full price for everyone else.

    And piss off the far greater numbers of MC users?  Ain't gonna happen.

    I think this years NAB showed the start of the merger of the two products under the Media Composer banner, the real flagship of the company.   It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months...

     

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Sat, Apr 17 2010 3:31 PM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    switthaus:
    I think this years NAB showed the start of the merger of the two products under the Media Composer banner, the real flagship of the company. 

     

    I think it really showed the future of Avid is in cloud computing. A few years off yet, but I think they tipped their hand to see what kind of reaction they get. My guess is the broadcasters are going to be falling all over themselves to get into this, then eventually it will be the way we all work.

    Symphony Nitris Classic, Symphony DX, MC Soft, MC Adrenaline, MC Adrenaline HD, Unity, Terrablock, ProTools [view my complete system specs]

    Terence Curren Alpha Dogs, Inc.

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  • Sat, Apr 17 2010 11:54 PM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    switthaus:

    Ra-ey Saleh:
    I'd like to see the 'software' on both MC and Symphony to be the same, with identical features (with the exception of anything that needs a DX for Output: HD RGB 444, Universal Mastering etc...).  It would then be purely the 'hardware' that was different, the "grunt" power. 

    Why have two products at all?  Merge the software and then choose your poison for IO.  It just makes sense.

    Ra-ey Saleh:

    Sell it at a massively reduced price for existing Symphony owners.

    Sell it full price for everyone else.

    And piss off the far greater numbers of MC users?  Ain't gonna happen.

    I think this years NAB showed the start of the merger of the two products under the Media Composer banner, the real flagship of the company.   It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months...

    First point:

    I think there's still plenty of room for MC and at least one more high-end Finishing Suite: Symph or DS.  The point was made earlier that many people like to keep their projects in the Avid world and the Total Conform you get from MC > Symph; and the kinda Total Conform you get from MC > DS is a carrot that's been dangled for a while and many people take.

    Bottom line is part of Symphony's strength is the "grunt" (DX now) behind it.  In some circumstances this is why people choose to Online in it rather than a normal MC - the time it takes to render.  You have to give people the option of whether to buy this box or not.  You can't make people pay the extra money; likewise, you can't stop them from wanting/needing to work faster.

    Like I said, I think the software on both MC and Symph should be the same, with just a hardware difference.

     

    Second piont:

    I'm not sure why this would piss off anyone. The MC Color console wasn't free for FCS - who'd expect it to be.  I'm not suggesting that a Controller should not be able to used in MC, just that users will have to pay for it, whereas it should come packaged with new Symphonys.  And from the Avid press release at least the whole External Controller idea appears to be a reality finally:

    "Avid plans to further develop an open standard protocol that greatly expands the ecosystem of compatibility between the Euphonix control surfaces and a wide range of Avid and third-party audio and video applications, including Media Composer and Pro Tools."


    And as for Terence's point about the whole Editing on the Web, I completely agree.  Though I still think 'Finishing' will happen on a local machine for a good while yet.

    Ra-ey

    Symphony Nitris v7, Media Composer v7, Artist Color, ISIS v4.1, Unity MediaNetwork v5.4, Sapphire v6.1, Boris Continuum Complete v8.1.1, AvidFX... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sun, Apr 18 2010 7:18 AM In reply to

    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    Ra-ey Saleh:
    I think the software on both MC and Symph should be the same, with just a hardware difference.

    What hardware difference? MC can run on a Z800 with a Nitris DX just as Symph can.

    And the whole idea behind the Euphonix controllers is that you may add them to a whole range of different software packages.

     

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Apr 18 2010 1:43 PM In reply to

    • switthaus
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    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    Ra-ey Saleh:
    I'm not suggesting that a Controller should not be able to used in MC, just that users will have to pay for it, whereas it should come packaged with new Symphonys.

    This is the same thinking (old) that failed with MC and Xpress.  The best solution would be to have one software product that has all the bells and whistles and then allow the user to customize the IO and control surface as their workflow demands it (and if Avid is selling the IO and controller, better for the bottom line).  It just makes no sense to cling to the price differences when the feature differences are so minimal.  So, if you did what you suggest above, would the price difference between MC and Symphony be greater or less than the cost of the control surface?  Just another can of Avid pricing worms waiting to be opened and best to be avoided.

    Ra-ey Saleh:
    And as for Terence's point about the whole Editing on the Web, I completely agree.  Though I still think 'Finishing' will happen on a local machine for a good while yet.

    From what i saw at NAB, this is definitely an early technology preview and has a long way to go.  Rather than web-based cloud editing, I see the value in local large-install situations.

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Mon, Apr 19 2010 4:37 PM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: SYMPHONY = A B A N D O N W A R E

    One thing that hasn't been mentioned here. If Blackmagic sells a ton of daVinci systems, maybe Avid will take notice and see there is a market for good color correction in their systems.

    Symphony Nitris Classic, Symphony DX, MC Soft, MC Adrenaline, MC Adrenaline HD, Unity, Terrablock, ProTools [view my complete system specs]

    Terence Curren Alpha Dogs, Inc.

    Burbank, Ca

    www.alphadogs.tv

    www.digitalservicestation.com

    www.editorslounge.com

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