Latest post Thu, Jan 28 2010 7:59 PM by fidelio2. 67 replies.
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  • Wed, Jan 27 2010 9:18 PM In reply to

    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    Solopost:
    The fact that you had to direct everyone to a photo link about TPing a house is great.

    I wasn't sure the reference would be universal.  Plus we work in a visual medium.  :)

     

    Back to the topic of the thread, since we're now chatting with Avid, Avid could you please keep enough major broadcasters and post houses using your products to allow me to make a reasonable living for the next 20 years or so?  That's really all I want.  Thanks.

    love always,

    Carl

    Media Composer 2019.8 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Envy 17t-j100 Quad Edition laptop, Windows 10 Pro, Intel Core i7 2.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce GT... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Wed, Jan 27 2010 9:26 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    • Avid Employee
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    NICKB:

    Todays news is that FCP does not run on the iPad Smile

    Here's the quote I took from Jobs' Keynote today...

    "Apple is a mobile company. That's who we are."

     

    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Wed, Jan 27 2010 9:31 PM In reply to

    • Jayanta
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    camoscato:

    Michael Rosenblum's website:
    His consulting clients include The BBC, TV-24/Germany, TV4/Sweden, Oxygen Media, BBC, KBC, TVL, Danmarks Radio (DK), TV-3 Sweden, Norway & Denmark, Tokyo Broadcasting, and Korea Broadcasting.

    His clients include the BBC and the BBC?  That's impressive. ;)

    Making stupid video is one thing ; but consulting how to do it?Confused

    heck they will be using Windows Movie Maker next. what will FCP do?

     

    All Sorts of System as I am a freelance Editor [view my complete system specs]

    "Out of mud the lovely Lotus Blooms, Out of Strife something higher vies "

  • Wed, Jan 27 2010 9:40 PM In reply to

    • OliverPeters
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    I'm not sure about the Rosenblum consulting, but here's a bit more on what the BBC is actually doing. This is from an article I wrote for Videography and then reposted on my blog.

    http://tinyurl.com/ylpju9o

    - Oliver

     

  • Wed, Jan 27 2010 9:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between BBC and The BBC?

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Wed, Jan 27 2010 10:17 PM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    BLKDOG:
    "Apple is a mobile company. That's who we are."

     

    One big case against FCP is that Apple have bigger projects than editing software so they may not bother investing much in it going forward.

    While Avid is an editing product company so in theory over the longer term should provide a more professional product and be more engaged with its customers.

  • Wed, Jan 27 2010 11:30 PM In reply to

    • conleec
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    It's truly a problem at the low end of things. I've managed to convice several producers to cut Red projects on Avid, when they wanted to use FCP, but it was a struggle to convince them. Good news is, in the end they were always happy.

    Where Avid still continues to shine, and it's biggest advantage against FCP, is shared workflow. This is the single biggest reason that the biggest of the big Hollywood blockbusters and television shows continue to use Avid. When you've got 2 or 3 editors and a handful of assistants pouring over every scene for months at a time, FCP just doesn't offer a similar option.

    I still think Avid should offer a software only 2 seat shared workflow. A Unity Lite, if you will. Allow an editor and an assistant to connect two machines via ethernet and work away with shared storage. This would be a KILLER app for Avid and would appeal greatly to low to mid budget feature folks.

    Also, the script sync capability is awesome. I showed this to a FCP guy the other day and he definitely went away envious.

    I agree with whoever said the sky isn't falling. Although it's getting pretty close in certain segments of the industry and in certain markets. I definitely try to keep up the speed on both, 'cause certainly some day I won't be able to convince a producer to let me cut on Avid and I'll have to fall back on FCP. Until that day arrives, I just keep on getting on.

    Chris

    MacPro 3.33Ghz 12 Core (Westmere, MacPro 5,1), 48Gb RAM, nVidia GeForce GTX 680, Intensity Pro (Desktop Video 10.4.3), OS X 10.13.6, MC 2018.12 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jan 28 2010 12:15 AM In reply to

    • OliverPeters
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    conleec:
    When you've got 2 or 3 editors and a handful of assistants pouring over every scene for months at a time, FCP just doesn't offer a similar option.

    Err... How about the large films cut on FCP that do use shared storage?

    conleec:
    Allow an editor and an assistant to connect two machines via ethernet and work away with shared storage.

    You mean like you can do with FCP and Final Share or other similar Ethernet/Apple Protocol-based shared storage?

    Granted it isn't Unity, but maybe you show look over this:

    http://www.avid2fcp.com/articles/sharing-projects

    - Oliver

     

  • Thu, Jan 28 2010 12:29 AM In reply to

    • conleec
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    It's not the same. It's a fundamental problem with the way FCP's projects are constructed. In Avid, each bin is a folder within the project folder. Therefore, very easy to assign read/write permissions to each bin based on who opens it first. These privileges are just as easily relinquished once a bin is closed. In FCP, every bin is contained within a single database. Therefore, to accomplish the same functionality, you have to do workarounds like creating a separate project for each bin, or creating proxy bins with separate permissions. Doable, perhaps, but a royal PITA. If you've used Unity extensively, you know FCP doesn't easily offer anything like it.

    Chris

    MacPro 3.33Ghz 12 Core (Westmere, MacPro 5,1), 48Gb RAM, nVidia GeForce GTX 680, Intensity Pro (Desktop Video 10.4.3), OS X 10.13.6, MC 2018.12 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jan 28 2010 1:46 AM In reply to

    • switthaus
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    Kenton.VanNatten:
    Sure, FCP/Premiere have a solid grip on the low markets and "complete" packages, but the number one thing you always hear is that Avid is better at the high end and broadcast.

    This is exactly the attitude that has put Avid in trouble today.  The company refuses to believe it has real competition and the fact that feature films and shows like "Ellen" are cut on it should be enough to make people go with it (along with paying more for the Avid product).  Anything else is "low markets" (excluding Autoscreet and Quantel).  Sorry, just not the case.  If Avid continues down this brand/market road, they will end up a niche product much like Lightworks.

    I was hired to cut spots this week, 35mm shoot, Spirit transfer, HD master.  The shop I am cutting at is FCP only.  And it all is going very smoothly.  But would this be considered "low market" because its cut on FCP?  I don't like to think so.

     

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Thu, Jan 28 2010 2:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    switthaus:
    I was hired to cut spots this week, 35mm shoot, Spirit transfer, HD master.  The shop I am cutting at is FCP only.  And it all is going very smoothly.  But would this be considered "low market" because its cut on FCP?  I don't like to think so.

    And of course, it's not.

    I never said FCP wasn't used by professionals, my main point is that most of the so-called "low-end" market I believe are seeing a $1200-$1500 cost difference between two software packages that on the surface appear to be very similar.  Nothing or no one is going to convince them to spend more.  

    Going back to my retaurant analogy...  let's say I'm hungry, I have lots of choices but two main ones are pulling at my stomach.  One is a nice steak restaurant the other is McDonald's.  Going to the steak restaurant is going to cost me more and take a little more time than McDonald's.  Both will fill me up and satisfy my hunger, but at what cost?  Will I feel ill after eating at McDonald's?  Will I even eat there?  Maybe I'll zip through the drive through and cram the food down my gullet while driving and talking on the cell phone.  If I choose the steak rest. I may feel that the meal overall was better quality, but now I've spent an hour and at least 3x more money than McDonald's.   

    But, at the level you're working right now, I'm sure the cost difference between Avid and FCP is a very small part of the overall pricing concerns and the FCP decision was made largely for other reasons. 

     

     

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Thu, Jan 28 2010 2:46 AM In reply to

    • switthaus
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    Kenton.VanNatten:
    the FCP decision was made largely for other reasons. 

    ...and I had no input into this decision.  Thats the tool I had to use and its going well (knock any wood I can find!).  But I am running into this more and more: facilities going over to FCP with younger staff editors at the helm.  Avid must find a way to reverse this trend.

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Thu, Jan 28 2010 2:59 AM In reply to

    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    switthaus:
    I am running into this more and more: facilities going over to FCP with younger staff editors at the helm.  Avid must find a way to reverse this trend.

    Hopefully, Avid will be the tortoise in this race if NICKB is correct

    NICKB:
    One big case against FCP is that Apple have bigger projects than editing software so they may not bother investing much in it going forward.

    From an SBU standpoint I can certainly see how Apple could "go consumer" with it's ProApps division and cripple development of FCP and related products.  Look at Automator.  Used to be at least with AppleScript you had to have some knowledge of scripting language and behaviors.   Now it's all drag and drop.  I also recently re-designed my website using iWeb much to the dismay of some web designer colleagues.  Apple is getting more and more geared to simplifying the user experience and that may end up hurting them in the long run when users would be looking for more from their creative apps.

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Thu, Jan 28 2010 3:55 AM In reply to

    • gumbycat99
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    Kenton.VanNatten:
    Going back to my retaurant analogy...  let's say I'm hungry, I have lots of choices but two main ones are pulling at my stomach.  One is a nice steak restaurant the other is McDonald's.  Going to the steak restaurant is going to cost me more and take a little more time than McDonald's.  Both will fill me up and satisfy my hunger, but at what cost?  Will I feel ill after eating at McDonald's?  Will I even eat there?  Maybe I'll zip through the drive through and cram the food down my gullet while driving and talking on the cell phone.  If I choose the steak rest. I may feel that the meal overall was better quality, but now I've spent an hour and at least 3x more money than McDonald's.  

    The problem with your restaurant analogy is that Avid and Apple aren't selling steaks, they're selling knives. Sure some people want to cut their steak with a silver knife off a fancy plate. But many people will tell you that the steak tastes just the same if you cut it with a cheap knife. It may cut a little rough around the edges, but the flavour is the same.

    Sure you can use your silver knife to cut a burger (and many people do, cos once they have a good knife they use it for everything), but many other people may think that's overkill.

    At the end of the day, as long as your knife cuts, the most enjoyable part of a meal is often the company you keep. Which leads back to the real problem of the OP. It should be the editor that a production hires first, and the edit suite second.

    And the larger problem here is that the producers are overlooking this fact and worrying more about which edit suite to use because there is a growing misconception that Avid doesn't just cut it anymore.

    cheers

    Campbell

     

    8.5 on a mongrel PC, Win 7, QT7.5, Nvidia GTX 970, 16Gb RAM, SSD, NAS for raw media and a Macbook Pro [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jan 28 2010 3:57 AM In reply to

    • OliverPeters
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    Re: Really sad about this situation....

    conleec:
    It's not the same. It's a fundamental problem with the way FCP's projects are constructed. In Avid, each bin is a folder within the project folder......In FCP, every bin is contained within a single database. Therefore, to accomplish the same functionality, you have to do workarounds like creating a separate project for each bin....

    Chris,

    I totally understand how Unity works. I've cut quite a lot with Unity and I've also done long-form jobs on both systems, including features. I agree there are advantages to Unity in that it's file-level based. Essentially the concept is that an Avid bin file equals an FCP project file as far as metadata is concerned. So in a film, there are different ways to organize material around projects.

    The real difference is that you cannot have two editors open the exact same project at once with FCP. Instead they have to work on copies of the same project. OTOH, in Unity to do the same thing - i.e. have two editors work on the exact same sequence - one editor has to duplicate a sequence and move it into another bin and close that bin. Then the second editor can work on it. If you do that, the editors have to work out between them, which version of each of their sequence copies is correct. Or the two versions have to be reconciled. That's not unlike issues that would take place in the FCP world.

    The bottom line is that yes, there are many nice things about Unity, but there are plenty of huge projects being cut in a shared FCP environment. For example, all three of the recent Fincher films (Zodiac, Benjamin Button, The Social Network).

    - Oliver

     

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