Latest post Sun, Sep 13 2009 8:53 PM by jef. 189 replies.
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  • Sat, Aug 15 2009 12:20 PM

    Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    More and more FCPS is being seen as a finishing solution. In this case, it's a large government agency, NASA, and post productions houses in Florida who are finding Avid's color correction tools and monitoring options unacceptable.

    http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/avid-editing-family/274411-interesting-combination-output-tape.html

    I don't see how the next step for those using this workflow is not to try to eliminate MC altogether and cut in FCP since the destination is FCPS? And before we all say how horrible cutting in FCP is, it may not be what we like or prefer but it's clearly doable.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Sun, Aug 16 2009 2:16 AM In reply to

    • switthaus
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    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    And before we all say how horrible cutting in FCP is

    It's not horrible either.  It has become second nature to me like my Avid work.  I was working at a large agency last month that has an in-house post facility.  Four  FCP's, one Flame, two AE stations and one Symphony Nitris that probably gets used once a month at best.  Unfortunately, outside LA and the long form broadcast market, this is happening more and more.  It is real live serious competition for Avid.  How Avid can respond is the bigger question.

    Know both, hope Avid kicks a** in the future...

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Sun, Aug 16 2009 7:20 AM In reply to

    • Glans
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    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    "hope Avid kicks a** in the future..."

     

    It never happened and it will never happen. As long as Avid keeps it's current developing rate FCP will always be ahead of it. Thing is that Avid need to do things faster. When a new system comes out they need to fully support it from day one. Otherwise it will be like for the Red One, which still hasn't a good support.
    AMA is a good thing but Avid can't seriously believe that they can lay back and make the camera developers create the support plugin for Avid? They need to do it themselves, looking up what is going on and be there before anyone else. This is was FCP is doing. You might say it's better to be stable then trying to do everything at once, but this is the reality of our modern times. Things are moving much faster, technology is evolving at a superfast speed and Avid needs to keep up the pace.

    I'm sad to say that after some work where I had to convince people around me that Avid is going to work fine, I now realize that I will not be able to work with Avid for much longer. FCP is taking too much ground, I need to be able to give the other people in post production a feeling of security in that the workflow is solid.

    We might argue that the workflow is indeed solid, but in reality it's not. The post production house have a number of times said to me that it would be better for them if I edited in FCP.

    So I have had a dream for a number of years that Avid would realize reality and take a big technological leap, but they don't and I'm beginning to feel that Avid is running out of time. They say they rather support big names and companies...  well, realitycheck, the big names are moving over to Final Cut and they are not looking back.

    Avid needs a change, otherwise it's not going to end well for them.

    * Intel core i7 (3,7 Ghz), 16gb RAM, GeForce GTX 580 3gb - workstation. * Macbook Pro Retina 15 (late 2013) 16gb Ram - Laptop * DeckLink Extreme3D with... [view my complete system specs]

    64 bit, GPU acceleration, better AMA, better exports with GPU acceleration, better grading with true secondary and lift gamma gain, higher resolutions (4K, 5K etc.) and a video stream online (for directors being far away on the phone or skype).

    That would blow ANY competition away and it will be future-proof MC for a long time.

  • Sun, Aug 16 2009 7:43 AM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    Glans:
    It never happened and it will never happen.
    Well, I remember Media Composer ABVB v7. That most definitely kicked butt. I don't think anything came near it back then.

    Glans:
    FCP will always be ahead of it.
    In what ways is FCP ahead? Just in some, and only for a few years.

    Glans:
    Otherwise it will be like for the Red One, which still hasn't a good support.
    Are you implying that Red is not succesful?

    Glans:
    Avid can't seriously believe that they can lay back and make the camera developers create the support plugin for Avid?
    What makes you think that they are laying back? How do you know they are not doing it themselves?

    Glans:
    I need to be able to give the other people in post production a feeling of security in that the workflow is solid
    For me, that is one of the main reasons to stick with Avid.

     

     

     

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Aug 17 2009 9:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    Job ter Burg:

    Glans:
    Otherwise it will be like for the Red One, which still hasn't a good support.
    Are you implying that Red is not succesful?

     

    I think he's talking about Avid's Red One support.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 2:37 AM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    I do think Avid is now running out of time, i suspect there are now more Avid editors learning FCP than ever before.

  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 7:12 AM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    I think he's talking about Avid's Red One support.

    Yes, I got that. But what is the point that the OP wants to make then?

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 8:00 AM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    His history and comparions are off for some points, but but his overall sentiment seems pretty clear.

    Glans:

    ... FCP is taking too much ground, I need to be able to give the other people in post production a feeling of security in that the workflow is solid.

    We might argue that the workflow is indeed solid, but in reality it's not. The post production house have a number of times said to me that it would be better for them if I edited in FCP.

    So I have had a dream for a number of years that Avid would realize reality and take a big technological leap, but they don't and I'm beginning to feel that Avid is running out of time. They say they rather support big names and companies...  well, realitycheck, the big names are moving over to Final Cut and they are not looking back.

    Avid needs a change, otherwise it's not going to end well for them.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 8:15 AM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    Here's another example of cutting in Avid and finishing in FCPS. This is not an isolated or one-off phenomena.

    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=462837#post462837

    What would have been unthinkable years ago is a reality for many workflows.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 8:21 AM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    Here's what I didn't get:

    When a new system comes out they need to fully support it from day one. Otherwise it will be like for the Red One, which still hasn't a good support.

    I thought Avid and Red support were being compared, I misread, and then misread your explanation, sorry. The OP meant that new formats like Red should be supported by Avid from day one.

    Not sure it is a manageable request. Especially since some of those formats, like Red, are sold as alpha versions, used in Beta, and replaced before they are finished.

    I agree that I prefer Avid to operate on the bleeding edge, in the front lines, with the pioneers.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 8:25 AM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    What would have been unthinkable years ago is a reality for many workflows.
    Why woulld that be unthinkable years ago? There has been a lot of finishing that was not done in Avid. Now that finishing tools have become desktop commodities, it's not so weird they are being used for finishing.

    But I'll admit that in my world, the Avid is mostly an offline machine, with some online capabilities.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 9:19 AM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    Job,

    (I have found it difficult to understand why Avid hasn't tried harder to continue moving up the post food chain. It was an odd realization that all these Hollywood films cut on Avid were almost never finished on one. But that's another sentiment.)

    As for what people are doing today with FCPS, it would have been unthinkable years ago b/c Final Cut was perceived as vastly inferior, esp. in the area of color correction.

    Avid at one time had a distinct advantage with its CC tool set. So the idea of cutting on Avid and finishing with any Final Cut offering would have been perceived as pretty harebrained. Now, that's nolonger the case.

    And while the Avid to Da Vinci, etc. workflow is no real threat to Avid (b/c no one's going to try offlining on a professional finishing system and eliminate Avid from the equation) that can't be said about the the Avid to FCPS workflow.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 7:43 PM In reply to

    • adamsonn
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    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    Please forgive my ignorance but this issue has fascinated me for a while and I think it is one of the big factors that distinguish the historical big production houses and movie studios from the increasing army of new boutique / corporate video companies...

    So my question is based on my experiences outside of the formal film production process

    In todays environment what is the need for online / offline?

    I have never worked on an online / offline basis (even for TV commercials), all my video is captured at DV25 (or downloaded from stock footage sites and imported) and finished in the main editor to file, DVD or tape (nowaday MC3.5, previously on Liquid but I think this is also applicable to Premier as well).

    This is also the case with HD projects.

    Even some of the directors in a more formal production houses I work with occasionally seem to have only a passing idea of what offline / online really means. Some refer to the raw capture of footage to disk as offlining, they really mean ingesting.

    I am certain others just say it to sound production house like!

    So if "onlining" is done through FCP then why not just edit the entire thing in FCP? Or am I missing some more pressing issues here that make this an impractical option in the big production houses?

    A terabyte drive now costs less than $200.00 so disk space surely isnt the issue, neither is the other hardware overly expensive.

    Why should I offline / online?

    MC6 machine: Intel Core i7 Asus P8-H67 64 bit Motherboard 1*1Tb SATA drive - partitioned to C (OS and programs) and D (data) drive 1*1TB SATA drive... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 7:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    adamsonn:

    A terabyte drive now costs less than $200.00 so disk space surely isnt the issue, neither is the other hardware overly expensive.

    Why should I offline / online?

    A few reasons that spring to mind.

    A Terrabyte does not go very far on a Doco with more than 20 49 minute HDCAM SR tapes that you want to offline at DNxHD 185x

    Nor are those harddrives fast enough for 1 stream of playback at that resolution.

    Servicing a client with over 100 HD field tapes and disks who is constantly making different programs involving shots from any of those tapes.

    Using Proxies (very fast ingest) from XDCAMHD to do the first cull from footage

     

  • Tue, Aug 18 2009 8:13 PM In reply to

    • adamsonn
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    Re: Another Sign of the "Apocalypse?"

    Yes those are good reasons  - thanks for this answer - simple and to the point. Smile

     

    MC6 machine: Intel Core i7 Asus P8-H67 64 bit Motherboard 1*1Tb SATA drive - partitioned to C (OS and programs) and D (data) drive 1*1TB SATA drive... [view my complete system specs]
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