Latest post Wed, Jul 1 2009 1:07 PM by tarsem antil. 83 replies.
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  • Fri, Feb 27 2009 4:44 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    AndrewAction:
    my reading was Video sattelite only worked with an Avid with a DX box

    Nope. Video Sattelite will enable two or more PT systems to integrate. And PT supports both Decklink and AJA boxes for video I/O now. My sound neighbours now have a ProTools with ICON in their main mixing stage, with an additional ProTools system (with BMD card) that is connected via Video Sattelite, and also can serve as a rerecording device when bouncing stems and such.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Feb 27 2009 4:57 PM In reply to

    • tonyjover
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Roberto Parentino:
    spout Avid because that's all you know or because that's where all your money has been invested is not a comeback. 

    Please do not assume to understand my motives for my posts.  Your assumptions are both incorrect.

    My post was pointing out the ridiculousness of the comment that 'anything with an AJA card' would "put you at or around what an Avid DS system can do ".  That's an absurd suggestion that could only have been made out of ignorance of the capabilities of DS.

    Roberto Parentino:
    Take a look at a Decklink Eclipse configuration and look what it can do for a LOT LESS INVESTMENT

    I have - it can do A LOT LESS.  That's what I'd expect; it's a toy compared to DS.

    If you want to make comparative comments then please back them up with facts, otherwise you simply make yourself look foolish.

    Regards,
    Tony

  • Fri, Feb 27 2009 5:12 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    I stand corrected.  As explained above, the Xena was added to Nitris-based systems to provide the 4:4:4 capability.  Starting with v10, the Xena can be used to provide all I/O.

     

    ... waiting anxiousy to split our Dual-Boot systems apart once and for all.

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Fri, Feb 27 2009 6:28 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    I think this would be a nice thing to do.  For those out there that currently use an Avid DS or Nitris or DX system list what you can do with your configured system?  Ok?  Codecs supported, input, output, audio tracks supported, monitoring capabilities, Video resolution support?  You know what I mean?  Then we who are asking for Avid to open up can compare the capabilities of a DS system to software running with a high-end AJA, Motu, Matrox or Decklink configuration.  Let's compare and see where the anvil falls.  Oh and don't forget price for the hardware too.  Avid Media Composer software is $2395.  What the current price of DX box?  What does it give you in capabilities and/or features?  Nitrix cost?  DS cost?

  • Fri, Feb 27 2009 6:41 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Job ter Burg:
    Video Sattelite will enable two or more PT systems to integrate
    Understood. I guess my reading and post was limited to exploring the parts about connecting Avid with Protools via Sattelite. 

    Your neighbours have an interesting setup.... food for thought.

    Buying LE Protools, presumably also requiring DV Toolkit, another CPU and BMD card to get video replay whilst soundmixing is not a smart option for my current situation. Cool

    The BMD card in my existing Protools allows me to mix 40+ audio tracks and HD replay. This system has MC 3 on the other boot drive. At some stage I will try and setup the BMD as the full screen play back option for Avid on this CPU.

  • Fri, Feb 27 2009 11:36 PM In reply to

    • Sco
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

     I always felt that 3rd party I/O, was one of the week points of FCP.

    Avid should just make a lower priced I/O for the smaller shops/mom and pop post houses that don't need DX level equipment. 

    Avid's DX gear is well worth the money in my book. I know it's gonna work they way it should

    and I never worry about inserting onto master tapes.  I can't say the same thing when dealing

    with even the high end Aja cards/FCP. 

    Home system - Asus P5Q3, Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83Ghz , Quadro FX 1700, 8 GB Crucial DDR3 PC3-10600, Vista Business 64-bit Work system - HP Xw8400... [view my complete system specs]

    Scott Cumbo

    Broadway Video, NYC

  • Sat, Feb 28 2009 1:22 AM In reply to

    • NICKB
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    'I always felt that 3rd party I/O, was one of the week points of FCP.'

     

    Why is it weak?

     

    I have a Blackmagic card works fine with Digibeta and HDCAM and shows on an external monitor all at full broadcast spec and has worked 100% for me.

    Broadcasters all over the world now use these AJA and Blackmagic cards i see no reason why Avid should not take advantage of them.

     

    How many people have Avid storage? Should MC only work on Avid storage?

     

  • Sat, Feb 28 2009 4:19 AM In reply to

    • nicov
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    NICKB:

    How many people have Avid storage? Should MC only work on Avid storage?

     

    That's an easy analogy but it discribes quite well the situation we're in. I just don't understand why Avid has been so attached to this proprietary hardware policy regarding MC.

    Protools is now much more open, it seems a bit short sighted to only look at hardware sales and justify a need to lock MC to Avid boxes. Boxes like DX will keep selling as long as they bring an added value over third party solutions, as DNxHD codec acceleration, accuracy on digital cut or just overall stability.

    At the same time an "open" MC would look much more cost effective and flexible. Nothing bad should come from that, not for Avid and surely not for us. It would just make it a better product, more complete, responding to more needs. 

     

    OSX 10.5.5 / MC 3.1.3 / Mojo DX / octo 2.8 Macpro / 6g ram / Ati 2600 + Ati 3870 / 2x Nec 19' + JVC DTV24 / Sony HVR M15 / 2To sata raid0 / [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 28 2009 2:47 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Sco:
    never worry about inserting onto master tapes.  I can't say the same thing when dealing

    with even the high end Aja cards/FCP. 

    We have a method that has greatly reduced the chance of FCP not punching in at the specified in point.  It still happens, but not nearly as often.  I always blame FCP, since the AJA card doesn't issue the deck edit commands.  I am relieved, though its an Avid forum, to read that we are not the only people to see this.  Too bad Apple is too busy with with its iGadgets to fix any bugs.

    Avid - don't follow Apple's example.  3rd Party Hardware I/O or not, always listen to your customers and fix their bugs!

    8-core Nehalem Mac Pro with Pro Tools|HDX v10.3.8 and DeckLink HD Extreme 8-core Nehalem Mac Pro with Symphony Nitris DX v7.0.3 12-core Westmere Mac... [view my complete system specs]

    Jonathan S. Abrams, CEA, CEV, CBNT

    Apple Certified - Technical Coordinator (v10.5), Support Professional (v10.6 through v10.8)

    Chairman, NY section, Audio Engineering Society

  • Sat, Feb 28 2009 4:17 PM In reply to

    • Sco
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

     With a client sitting behing you when  your inserting onto their master tape (that may not have a backup) the last thing I want is something thats frame accurate most of the time.

    either way Avid would be smart to have a low priced sd/hd I/O

    Home system - Asus P5Q3, Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83Ghz , Quadro FX 1700, 8 GB Crucial DDR3 PC3-10600, Vista Business 64-bit Work system - HP Xw8400... [view my complete system specs]

    Scott Cumbo

    Broadway Video, NYC

  • Sat, Feb 28 2009 5:00 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Sco:
    ...either way Avid would be smart to have a low priced sd/hd I/O

    100% agreed. In fact, developing this I believe will be a critical key to Avid's survival and ability to be competitive in the future.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

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    The Pentagon Channel

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  • Sat, Feb 28 2009 7:32 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    nicov:
    I just don't understand why Avid has been so attached to this proprietary hardware policy regarding MC.
    IMO History.  The program was written nearly 2 decades ago with those early Avids being able to do much of what todays Avids can on CPU's with 50MHz processor, 16MB's of RAM, virtually non existant display cards and really slow hard drives.  Every part of the process had to be optimised beyond the performance available from standard off the shelf items.  The code became complex to take advantage of evey speed tweak available from the best componentry avialable at the time. Some said Avid had the most lines of code of any commercial program at the time.

    My guess is that some of this legacy code now makes it difficult to be more "open" to third party IO's whilst continuing to make it easier to gain useful advantages using hardware designed to take work WITH the program.

    nicov:
    Protools is now much more open
    Not particulary with its Audio IO's. It is more open with what it can do with video playback (optimised for single video stream).  What is the relative data throughput for a basic 96K audio project compared to throughput required for an average Avid HD timeline?

  • Sun, Mar 1 2009 6:27 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    AndrewAction:
    nicov:
    Protools is now much more open
    Not particulary with its Audio IO's.

    It's not officially open to 3rd party Audio interfaces, but they can be used.  Apogee was the first company to figure out how to have their interfaces work with Pro Tools|HD.  Other companies followed suit.  How these companies do it is not supported or sanctioned by Digidesign (as far as I know), but Digidesign isn't rewriting their interface code to break the functionality.

    AndrewAction:
    It is more open with what it can do with video playback (optimised for single video stream).  What is the relative data throughput for a basic 96K audio project compared to throughput required for an average Avid HD timeline?

    96kHz * 24-bit = 2,304,000 bits ÷ 1,024 = 2.25Mbps for each audio track.  But why work on post audio at 96kHz when all of the tape-based delivery formats are 48kHz?

    8-core Nehalem Mac Pro with Pro Tools|HDX v10.3.8 and DeckLink HD Extreme 8-core Nehalem Mac Pro with Symphony Nitris DX v7.0.3 12-core Westmere Mac... [view my complete system specs]

    Jonathan S. Abrams, CEA, CEV, CBNT

    Apple Certified - Technical Coordinator (v10.5), Support Professional (v10.6 through v10.8)

    Chairman, NY section, Audio Engineering Society

  • Sun, Mar 1 2009 7:34 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Chief Technician:
    But why work on post audio at 96kHz when all of the tape-based delivery formats are 48kHz?
    I dont..... usually

    My point was in answer to "Why can Digi and not Avid become open to TP IO's?"  As your math confirms the core Protools program does not NEED to be as intense as Avid to achieve reliable record / playback speed performance out of a CPU.  (11 tracks 96k audio roughly equals 1 realtime stream DV).

    Audio has FEW, very long established record formats where the only significant changes are in sample and bitrates.

    Avid needs to take into account the same audio formats plus a wide, and widening, divergance of video formats for its IO's, mixing any or all of those formats in the timeline, realtime effects (Protools HD uses it's own boards for realtime processing TDM) etc etc. Then lever all of these into legacy code. (Someone suggested on here that a study indicated it would cost Avid $160M approx to completely rewrite the program from scratch today.)

  • Sun, Mar 1 2009 11:44 PM In reply to

    • DylanReeve
    • Top 50 Contributor
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      Moderator: MCA PC

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    lmerino:

    Sycophant:
    This has always been an argument for Apple computer hardware - namely that Mac OS is faster and better because it can be optimised for a limited hardware platform without having to be open to just any old thing.

    I'm sorry... what???

    For years (and still to some extent today) the argument offered to support Apple computers in favour of the cheaper more powerful PC-alternatives was one of integration. Macs perform better, goes the argument, because the hardware is limited and well tested together, and the OS is optimised for that specific hardware, whereas PC systems are cobbled together from an infinate number of hardware options, relying on third-party drivers from many random suppliers.

    There was (and maybe still is) some validity to the argument. It is much easier to squeeze the most performance from a software/hardware combo if the software is optimised for that hardware, rather than relying on an abstraction layer to interface between software and unknown hardware.

    I believe that Avid gets better performance from their DX hardware than FCP does from Blackmagic or AJA hardware. And Avid has a very strong brand to protect when it comes to efficency and reliability, one that could potentially be damaged by opening up their I/O.

    That's not to say I wouldn't like to see some more affordable options, I just don't think it's as simple as people think, and I also think the value of Avid hardware is overlooked. DS may support AJA Xena, but that's all it supports. In the same way the the I/O for sytems like Smoke and eQ is also limited to very specific hardware.

     

    Various systems - including HP Z440 and Z840 workstations Media Composer 2018 [view my complete system specs]

    Dylan Reeve - Edit Geek // Online/Offline Editor // Post Production Supervisor
    Auckland, New Zealand

     

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