Latest post Sat, Jul 27 2019 10:32 PM by lalittle. 16 replies.
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  • Sun, Jul 21 2019 1:23 AM

    • lalittle
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    AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    Is there a way to link to AMA media but have it play at the framerate of the project rather than the framerate of the clip?  In other words, if I have a 23.98 fps project and a 29.97 fps clip, I'd like to AMA link to that clip and have it play at the slightly slower framerate of the project.  Note that I'm NOT talking about a framerate conversion -- I do not want the create a 23.98 fps clip from the 29.97 fps clip.  I want all of the clip's frames to play -- I just want the sequence of frames in the clip to play at the slower project framerate.

    Again, this will mean that the clip is not playing at the original speed.  One second of the clip will take approximately 1.25 seconds to play in the project.

    I know that there are ways to re-encode the clip to slow it down and then change the framerate, but the math doesn't necessarily work out precisely depending on the exact framerates of a given clip, and the process can easily lead to artifacts.  I just want to tell avid to ignore the clip's framerate and play each frame in sequence at the project framerate.

    Sorry if I made a simple question sound more complex, but I feared that without all the detail my question could me misinterpreted.

    Thanks,

    Larry

  • Sun, Jul 21 2019 11:58 AM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    In the bin, right-click on the clip in question and choose Source Settings. You'll see a tab for playback rate. Change that to Project rate from Clip rate.

    Note that if you've already placed the clip in the timeline, it will continue to play back at the rate it was at the time it was placed on the timeline.

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  • Sun, Jul 21 2019 9:41 PM In reply to

    • lalittle
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    Ah!  I knew it was there somewhere -- thanks.

    L

  • Mon, Jul 22 2019 1:08 AM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    DStone:
    Note that if you've already placed the clip in the timeline, it will continue to play back at the rate it was at the time it was placed on the timeline.
    While grammatically correct, I wonder if I could have made that sentence any more convoluted than it already is!!

    You're welcome. We aim to please.

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  • Mon, Jul 22 2019 7:56 AM In reply to

    • Bruno M
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    DStone:
    Note that if you've already placed the clip in the timeline, it will continue to play back at the rate it was at the time it was placed on the timeline.

    In this situation, you simply have to refresh the sequence to make any changes you made in Frameflex appear on your timeline.

    To do this, simply select the appropriate timeline (in the relevent bin) and right-click. You'll see the 'Refresh Sequences' command about two-thirds down. Clicking will reveal a futher menu, where you can specify what parts of Frameflex you want to refresh - I just normally select 'All'.

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  • Mon, Jul 22 2019 9:33 AM In reply to

    • lalittle
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    DStone:
    While grammatically correct, I wonder if I could have made that sentence any more convoluted than it already is!!

    All I can say is that I understood the meaning to be that which the message you had written had intended to convey.

     

    On a followup note, just to check, are there any potential "gotchas" to doing this that I might not be considering?  If I tell MC to play the clip at the project framerate instead of the clip's original framerate, might there, for example, be issues in certain situations when outputting the sequence later on?  It seems like it should work, but I just want to try to avoid any pitfalls if possible.

    Continuing on a related note, if I leave the clip alone and let Avid play it at the the clip's rate, what happens when I output the sequence later on?  Does it drop or add frames to compensate in the file that's output?

    Thanks again,

    Larry

  • Mon, Jul 22 2019 11:16 AM In reply to

    • v-block
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    There are no complications unless your clip has audio and you intent to use it. In that case I would add few extra steps. I would set the clip source to the project frame rate, put it on it's own sequence and adjust the audio with an audio filter so that the duration of the audio matches the video. Then export that at the project frame rate and re import it as a true 23.98fps clip.

    If you leave the clip as 29.97fps MC will automatically add the equivalent of a timewarp to convert the frame rate., The result of that will depend of which render setting you set for the timewarp. The default (both fields) will result in some frames not being used, in the case of 29.97 to 23.98 and a slightly uneven motion to the sensitive eye.

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  • Fri, Jul 26 2019 10:44 AM In reply to

    • lalittle
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    I seem to have run into a bit of a hiccup.

    I'm using DNxHD 175X source material for this project, but I transcode to DNxHD 36 for editing (smoother playback with multiple streams), then relink back to the original higher res clips for final output.  Apparently, you cannot relink a transcoded clip that started at a different framerate than the project -- I received a warning message about this, and upon testing discovered that the relink would indeed not work. In other words, the DNxHD 36 clip would not relink back to the 175X original.

    My workaround was to create an individual sequnece for each clip that has a framerate that doesn't match the project, then export that clip as a same-as-source file (DNxHD 175X), then AMA link the new file back into MC.  The new clip now plays the exact same number of frames back at the project framerate by default, and works correctly to transcode to DNxHD 36, then relink back to the 175X original source.

    This seems like a somewhat "brute force" approach, so I'm wondering if there might be a more elegant way to do the same thing.  Is there a way to get this to work from within MC using the original "incorrect framerate" clips without having to do the export/import dance?

    Thanks,

    Larry

  • Fri, Jul 26 2019 10:59 AM In reply to

    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    v-block:
    I would set the clip source to the project frame rate, put it on it's own sequence and adjust the audio with an audio filter so that the duration of the audio matches the video. Then export that at the project frame rate and re import it as a true 23.98fps clip.

    Ooof, I beg to differ. AFAIK, MC does change the audio rate as well when changing playback speed in source settings. If you need to compensate for pitch, it is really much better to do that AFTER the slowdown or speedup. And Avid's built-in audio retime plugins are far from great. I would let the audio house handle it.

    And export and reimport destroys the relation with the original source...

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  • Fri, Jul 26 2019 11:03 AM In reply to

    • jo56lu
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    When transcoding to offline resolution (in your case DNxHD 36), select 'keep sources framerate' in the transcode dialog box. Then you will be able to relink later.

    Although you'll have to check wether this remains true when changing playback speed in source settings, but I think it will work.

     

    HTH

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  • Fri, Jul 26 2019 12:48 PM In reply to

    • v-block
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    Job ter Burg:

    Ooof, I beg to differ. AFAIK, MC does change the audio rate as well when changing playback speed in source settings. If you need to compensate for pitch, it is really much better to do that AFTER the slowdown or speedup. And Avid's built-in audio retime plugins are far from great. I would let the audio house handle it.

    And export and reimport destroys the relation with the original source...

    Yes MC does automatically change the audio to keep the same duration but if I remember the pitch doesn't change (you can adjust both with the one audio filter, I forget which one). If you set the the source of the 29.97fps clip to play at 23.98fps project rate, the duration of the video increases, while the duration of the audio remains as per the original duration of the clip. If you let MC automatically add the timewarp, the video and audio match but roughly every 5th frame of video won't be used, if the default render (both fields) mode is used. So the choice I think is between video with slightly uneven motion, video that may look odd due to slow motion or you could use fluid motion which could take a long time to render depending on the clip length.

    Yes, the new clip will be the new source but at least the potential complications of audio mismatch and future relinking will be gone.

     

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  • Fri, Jul 26 2019 2:59 PM In reply to

    • lalittle
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    jo56lu:

    When transcoding to offline resolution (in your case DNxHD 36), select 'keep sources framerate' in the transcode dialog box. Then you will be able to relink later.

    Two questions:

    1) Is the idea here that if I tell it to "keep source's framerate," I'd then adjust the "source setting" for the transcoded clip to the project framerate (just as I did with the original source clip)?  I feel like I'd still run into a wall given the wording of the warning that MC gave me, but I may not be remembering it correctly.

    2) I believe that checking "keep source's framerate" disables the use of DNxHD and forces DNxHR.  This may not be an issue, but I'm not yet familiar with DNxHR and what issues it may bring up.  For example, I'm unclear if DNxHR requires more processing power to decode it on the fly.

    Note that for this particular project I'm not concerned with the source's audio.

    Larry

  • Fri, Jul 26 2019 3:54 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    Larry,

    Have you tried the following?

    Let's create the following situation:  23.976p project.  I have some 29.97p footage.  I edit it into the sequence and it now has a T time adapter on it.  I open the timewarp tool and see the clip is running 110% (pulling from memory).  All I do is change to 100% and the clip is now playing "frame for frame" - the best visual playback.

    Is this what you are attempting to do?  I work this way all the time as it provides the most flexibility/safety in my opinion.

    Jef

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  • Fri, Jul 26 2019 5:36 PM In reply to

    • jo56lu
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    lalittle:

    jo56lu:

    When transcoding to offline resolution (in your case DNxHD 36), select 'keep sources framerate' in the transcode dialog box. Then you will be able to relink later.

    Two questions:

    1) Is the idea here that if I tell it to "keep source's framerate," I'd then adjust the "source setting" for the transcoded clip to the project framerate (just as I did with the original source clip)?  I feel like I'd still run into a wall given the wording of the warning that MC gave me, but I may not be remembering it correctly.

    2) I believe that checking "keep source's framerate" disables the use of DNxHD and forces DNxHR.  This may not be an issue, but I'm not yet familiar with DNxHR and what issues it may bring up.  For example, I'm unclear if DNxHR requires more processing power to decode it on the fly.

    Note that for this particular project I'm not concerned with the source's audio.

    Larry

    The warning you get is when transcoding with 'convert to project frame rate', you can't relink to the original clip later.

    And yes your only choice when keeping sources FPS is DNxHR, but DNxHR LB looks pretty decent and you could try to see if your system is capable to play back multiple streams.

    Just to add to Jef's post (maths is easier in Europe with 50i and 50p :-)):

    I normally work in 50i, so if I add footage shot in 50p, and want to be able to relink later, I transcode with 'keep sources frame rate'. In the timeline Avid adds a temporal 'T' adaptor that shows 200 %, has the original clip lenght (as recorded) and plays at normal 'real' speed.

    If I change the T adaptor (promoted) to 100 %, the clip still has the original length in the timeline but plays back at half speed (slow motion), thus playing back only the first half of the clip. Audio is not affected.

    If I change the playback speed in source settings to 'project's FPS' before editing in the timeline, there will be a motion adaptor on the clip, the clip lenght is double the original, and plays back as slomo, including audio.
    Note that you'll have to adjust the quality of the motion adaptor befor final output, depending on the footage.

    So I think the third method will give you what you asked for in your first post.

    HTH

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  • Fri, Jul 26 2019 6:41 PM In reply to

    • lalittle
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    Re: AMA link to clip, but have it play at slower project framerate.

    I'm playing with the time warp effect right now.  Seems like this may work as described, but things seem a little wonky when it comes to how it appears in the timeline -- I have to experiment more to fully get the gist of this method.

    In the end, it seems like the export/import dance I described earlier, where I essentially use avid to alter remake the clip as a new piece of media that runs frame for frame at the correct speed to start with, may actually be the "cleanest" way to deal with this.  Even though it seems a little heavy handed, the end result is a clip that natively runs at the correct speed, which is nice.

    I'll have to play some more.  Seems like the time warp solution requires the fewest steps but is a bit complex "under the hood," while the export/import solution requires more steps but has the least complex end result.

    Thanks again for all the responses here,

    Larry

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