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  • Mon, May 25 2015 1:02 AM

    • gumbycat99
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    New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    So I just discovered something new which seems to fix the issue that lots of people have with Media Composer displaying video levels "correctly" but not "naturally" like other NLEs do.

    If you right-click in the composer window there is a new item in the menu - Display Color Space - with options like Rec709, Rec709[Full range], SRGB and DCIP3.

    I can't find any mention of this in the manual or online, but choosing Rec709[Full Range] changes the image from having washed-out black levels to a higher contrast 'natural' looking image. I'm guessing this is the same as choosing Expanded Luminance option for Full-Screen display. And presumably the other options are if you have your monitor calibrated to those settings?

    Anyway, more information would be great, but for the moment it's a relief when I'm editing at home without an external monitor.

    cheers

    Campbell

    8.5 on a mongrel PC, Win 7, QT7.5, Nvidia GTX 970, 16Gb RAM, SSD, NAS for raw media and a Macbook Pro [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 25 2015 2:08 AM In reply to

    • Leo153
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    Thanks for that post. REC709 [full range] with Canon footage recorded in wide dymaic range looks so much better.  On client monitor it look terrific. I too am looking forward to hearing the diffences between each color space setting. Thanks Gumbycat ! Leo

    MC 2018.12, BCC 10, Nvidia Quadro K4200,ver.340.84, QT 7.7.4, HP Z840 3.06 12 core, 32 Gig RAM, G-Tech G-Speed eS, 12 TB RAID5, GTech Studio 6TB Thunderbolt... [view my complete system specs]

     

     

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  • Mon, May 25 2015 9:45 AM In reply to

    • Joachim Claus
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    gumbycat99:

    I can't find any mention of this in the manual or online, but choosing Rec709[Full Range] changes the image from having washed-out black levels to a higher contrast 'natural' looking image. I'm guessing this is the same as choosing Expanded Luminance option for Full-Screen display. And presumably the other options are if you have your monitor calibrated to those settings?

    Anyway, more information would be great, but for the moment it's a relief when I'm editing at home without an external monitor.

    It is documented in the "WhatsNew_MediaComposer_v8.3.pdf" file, when version 8.3 was released. It is not mentioned under MC 8.3.1.

    Joachim

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    Joachim Claus

  • Mon, May 25 2015 11:33 AM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    This is a rather problemmatic feature. Despite what the Source/Record/Client Monitor shows, it has no bearing, whatsoever, on the levels that are output. At the very least, an on-screen avatar should display the settings. It's too easy to display incorrect levels relative to what's being output.

    SYS1:ASUS Z97, Haswell 4.0GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, Quadro 4200 + GTX1070, Thunderbolt II -DNxIO-FSI CM171 ///SYS2:ASUS Maximus Extreme V, Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz... [view my complete system specs]

    M-Power Independent Video and Film Services, Sony PMW-F5--Sony FS700U--Canon 7d--Odyssey 7Q

  • Mon, May 25 2015 12:08 PM In reply to

    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    You would not want your display settings to carry over your export settings, would you? Scopes tell you the actual levels.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 25 2015 12:14 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    I WOULD like to know what my export settings are, relative to my display settings. Why would I want to view full range, 0-1024, if I'm exporting video range 64-940? Another piece of vital data for display may very well be whether full range data is being clipped or remapped if being exported at video range.

    SYS1:ASUS Z97, Haswell 4.0GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, Quadro 4200 + GTX1070, Thunderbolt II -DNxIO-FSI CM171 ///SYS2:ASUS Maximus Extreme V, Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, May 25 2015 1:38 PM In reply to

    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    cuervo:
    I WOULD like to know what my export settings are, relative to my display settings.

    Not trying to be stubborn, but they need not be related, do they? For instance, when working with legal 709 video, any attached broadcast monitor would display black at 16/64 and white at 235/940. If you were to set your S/R monitors to expand the luma levels so that they sort of give you the same look on your S/R monitors (rather than having them show you greyish blacks and less-bright whites), your footage and project would still be set up for legal video, and if you need a legal video export, you would simply export as-is. You would not want the display-correction used in the source/record monitors to have any bearing on the export result of video that is already fine for export, right?

    Unless I'm totally missing your point.

    Why would I want to view full range, 0-1024, if I'm exporting video range 64-940?
    This is precisely why the feature was introduced, no? It used to be so that the S/R monitors showed the signal uncorrected. Now you can choose to sort of match them to a broadcast monitor.

     

    I really believe that monitor settings and export settings are two different beasts, and yes, quite often, one might not be in line with the other.

    Another piece of vital data for display may very well be whether full range data is being clipped or remapped if being exported at video range.

    I don't think I understand that question.

    Traditional import either leaves the levels as they are (even if illegal), remapping nothing, clipping nothing (601/709 radio button) or remaps to legal, no clipping (RGB radio button).

    Traditional export either leaves the levels as they are (even if illegal), remapping nothing, clipping nothing (601/709 radio button), or remaps from legal to full swing (RGB radio button), which implies clipping all levels over 235/940 and under 16/64 (which are all supposed not to be there).

    As for what happens with the S/R display setting, I have no clue.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 25 2015 1:51 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    I understand what you're saying, Job. It just seems to me that this issue of RGB(full swing) vs. Studio swing is an on-going problem for many people. Now that we can select what space we're viewing in, it could correlate with what level we're exporting. I say that only because it's way too easy to grade to Studio levels, then export with incorrectly lifted levels. Or, on the conrary, grade to full swing, then export to studio swing when full swing is wanted, incorrectly clipping shadows.

    I'm only suggesting that Media Composer could be a step ahead of other NLE's by clearly warning the editor what's happening re: on the monitor screens and on the export. Those of us who understand what's happening, can cross check scopes and outputs, but, it takes an extra level of awareness. I'm just suggesting that MC could simplify the entire process by clearly indicating each setting.

    It doesn't help that MC seems to set levels differently, depending on what output codec is being selected. If this was shown, in the edit window, for example, errors could be caught before render is activated.

    As far as input levels, i think this is something the editor needs to be aware of, not something MC should necessarily track, even though, current practice seems to be to remap all input to Studio swing, whether that's correct, or not. I need to manually check everything and reset when it's incorrect, which is about 50% of my AMA links.

    Nothing is more frustrating and irritating, to me, than any video application that automatically remaps levels, whether input or output, without telling me.

    SYS1:ASUS Z97, Haswell 4.0GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, Quadro 4200 + GTX1070, Thunderbolt II -DNxIO-FSI CM171 ///SYS2:ASUS Maximus Extreme V, Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, May 25 2015 2:01 PM In reply to

    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    cuervo:
    MC seems to set levels differently, depending on what output codec is being selected
    You might be referring to ProRes, but I do think that the display of that is governed by QT player, not MC.

    cuervo:
    I need to manually check everything and reset when it's incorrect, which is about 50% of my AMA links
    This is why I always try to import (or AMA-link) with levels as they are. I can correct inside MC's CC tool if needed.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 25 2015 4:04 PM In reply to

    • Radman
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    There is an issue and is being looked at by support.

    Hopefully there will be a change soon.

    Radman.

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  • Mon, May 25 2015 7:26 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    Yes

    nice to hear it's a known issue....

    SYS1:ASUS Z97, Haswell 4.0GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, Quadro 4200 + GTX1070, Thunderbolt II -DNxIO-FSI CM171 ///SYS2:ASUS Maximus Extreme V, Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, Jul 27 2015 9:28 PM In reply to

    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    Actually I dont understand what should I use for viewing my footage on computer srgb monitor.....Rec709(Full range) or SRGB?

  • Mon, Jul 27 2015 10:42 PM In reply to

    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    As I understand from my test whith in the color chart and color info tool, DISPLAY COLOR SPACE luts works for broadcast monitor calibrated to rec 709 only, not for srgb computer monitor. Thats why color chart whith in SRGB lut looks brighter than REC 709 (full range) LUT on computer monitor. That means DISPLAY COLOR SPACE luts doesnt solve the problem for monitoring your footage on the srgb computer monitor. DISPLAY COLOR SPACE luts helps to stretch from 16-235 to 0-255 only. Gamma shifting issue is stiil here...It works only for youtube not for broadcast.

  • Tue, Sep 22 2015 10:25 PM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    Good Post!!! HAHA yes just found this setting last night, by accidentSmile. My color look of my clips in MC now match the color look of the original files when viewed on the camera or in quicktime when I set it to REC709 (full range) !!!

    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Sep 23 2015 2:16 AM In reply to

    • gumbycat99
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    Re: New favourite undocumented feature - Display Color Space

    I actually have a new theory, although I haven't had a chance to try it out yet...

    When I'm working on a project for web delivery (i.e. computer/full swing/0-255 colour levels) then that is what I should grade to.

    Previously (just because I usually work for broadcast), even if the camera records at 0-255 levels, I would grade the image for 16-235 and export from there. If I was exporting a broadcast file then I'd export as 709/leave colour levels alone. If I was exporting for web I'd export as RGB/expand to 0-255.

    But this just means that for web projects I'm squashing the levels into a narrower band and then expanding them again.

    So I think I should try to grade web projects to 0-255 and then export using the 709/leave levels alone setting. What do you think?

    (Hides under table and waits for everyone to start yelling...)

    8.5 on a mongrel PC, Win 7, QT7.5, Nvidia GTX 970, 16Gb RAM, SSD, NAS for raw media and a Macbook Pro [view my complete system specs]
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