Latest post Wed, Jun 17 2015 6:48 PM by Job ter Burg. 7 replies.
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  • Wed, Apr 8 2015 12:42 PM

    • cut4dough
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    Surround formats - Pro Tools interleaved in Film format>want SMPTE

    Is there a way to have Pro Tools 11 and MC 8..2.2 transfer 5.1 files in the SMPTE format vs. the film format.  We work in broadcast and the excercise of reording the tracks inside Media Composer is a drag.

  • Wed, Apr 8 2015 1:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Surround formats - Pro Tools interleaved in Film format>want SMPTE

    "Re-ordering" in MC should be easy, simply select the import and choose Modify-Set Multichannel Audio and tell MC the track layout of that clip. It should then play out in the form you have your monitoring set up (either Film or SMPTE).

    But maybe I'm not fully understanding your question?

     

    J

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 8 2015 1:22 PM In reply to

    • cut4dough
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    Re: Surround formats - Pro Tools interleaved in Film format>want SMPTE

    Job, thanks for the quick response.  The issue is that Pro Tools only will interleave a 5.1 file as a Film formatted 5.1 file.  Will that process you describe transcode the track order into the SMPTE format upon input?  We need the files to be in the SMPTE format prior to sending it out to broadcast.

  • Wed, Apr 8 2015 1:53 PM In reply to

    • cut4dough
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    Re: Surround formats - Pro Tools interleaved in Film format>want SMPTE

    Just to describe workflow with a bit more detail.  We dub the mix tracks internally in Pro Tools (currently 10.3.X but within day will be 11.3..x) in a 5.1 track (which is inherantly film format in Pro Tools - always has been) along with all down mixes and stems.  This is then exported as an embedded .aaf and posted in our drop folders.  The editor then loads the .aaf back into the sequence and needs to 'break' the 5.1 tracks and resequnece from fim (L,C,R,Lfe,Ls,Rs) to SMPTE (L,R,C,...) before exporting the broadcast file.  Is there a way to transfer this data in a reasonable, nonconvoluted manner?

  • Thu, Apr 9 2015 11:18 AM In reply to

    • TrevorA
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    Re: Surround formats - Pro Tools interleaved in Film format>want SMPTE

    In my experience surround editing in Avid Media Composer has always been broken because of the underlying 'Film order' or LCR engine inherited from ProTools. This can result in unexpected results, especially if invoking audio mixdowns and/or using stereo or mono tracks within a sequence.

    e.g. If you import an interleaved wav and set it to be '5.1 SMPTE' it changes the order to be Film to work within the LRC engine. Somewhat counter-intuitive.

    You will then see the tracks out of order on the waveforms and audio mixer, but if you set the audio mixer output track order to be '5.1 SMPTE' then it is returned to LRC on the output meters (& output).

    BUT if you add a mono track within that sequence then you have to pan it right to come out of the centre - and vice versa

    Our need in Sport is to keep the surround tracks somewhat discrete, so it is easier to remove VO/Commentary, and also some of our sources are mono and stereo - and we don't have time to be surround panning, even if it did work properly. So we dance a merry dance figuring out a workflow that involves multiple stereo and mono tracks and direct out routing - and avoid mixdowns where possible as they are always trouble.

    Or edit in stereo

    Most MC users do not use these features so there is a lack of complaining about it.

     

  • Wed, Jun 17 2015 6:10 PM In reply to

    • ScottyD
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    Re: Surround formats - Pro Tools interleaved in Film format>want SMPTE

    I can confirm what Trevor is saying. This is highly dissapointing being that Avid owns both Media Composer and Pro Tools. Why can't they just make this work like it should? At this point, we just modify the tracks in Media Composer and put them back in SMPTE 5.1 order.

     

    That being said, with some testing, we figured out that we can export WAVs that import into Media Composer just fine. The key was setting the "path order" in Pro Tools to SMPTE 5.1. AAFs don't work correctly even with this changed setting.

     

    It would be nice if Avid got their act together and fixed this.

    2.66ghz Core i7 Mac Book Pro 8GB RAM 10.9.3 Media Composer 6.5.2 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Jun 17 2015 6:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Surround formats - Pro Tools interleaved in Film format>want SMPTE

    cut4dough:
     Will that process you describe transcode the track order into the SMPTE format upon input?
    Not really, but that is not needed.

    When you have a 6-track multitrack clip in MC, you can tell MC which track order this clip has. Setting the Multichannel Audio settings means you explaining to MC that this clip either has Film or SMPTE track order.

    Subsequently, if you splice this clip into a 5.1 sequence, MC will know (under the hood) how to route each channel. And when you output from MC, the tracks will be routed properly.

    So for instance, if you bring in a 5.1 Film order clip, just tell MC it is in Film order. If you subsequently export or play out in SMPTE order, MC will correctly route the tracks to the right output channels.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Jun 17 2015 6:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Surround formats - Pro Tools interleaved in Film format>want SMPTE

    TrevorA:
    You will then see the tracks out of order on the waveforms and audio mixer
    The audio mixer and the waveforms always show Film order. But why does that matter? It's the way one monitors 5.1 in general.

    TrevorA:
    if you set the audio mixer output track order to be '5.1 SMPTE'
    It's the monitoring output you are setting, and yes, if you set that to 5.1 SMPTE then the Audio Tool meters will show LRCLfeLsRs. As expected.

    Folks have to stop thinking about track orders. You are not routing individual channels inside MC. You are using 5.1 clips, regardless of the track order they come in at, or are being output at. As long as you properly tell MC which the track order of the source clip is, and you tell it what you want the output to be, all tracks automaticallly end up on the right channels.

     

    Also, the way MC handles this avoids you having to set SMPTE or Film order per track. It lets you mix 5.1 clips, whether they came in in SMPTE or Film order, doesn't matter, they are all 5.1 elements and are handled as such, properly routed. If meters and waveforms would be switching channel order per clip or per track, that would be hell, especially if you're handling these in environments without 5.1 monitoring.

    TrevorA:
    BUT if you add a mono track within that sequence then you have to pan it right to come out of the centre - and vice versa
    This never ever has to be in MC. Why would it ever? Tell MC what order your source is, tell MC how to output it. Pan mono elements using the 5.1 panners.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
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