Latest post Tue, Aug 10 2010 4:16 PM by denay. 10 replies.
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  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 1:55 AM

    • denay
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    • walachei
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    AMA and native editing

    At the moment i am really disappointed how colorful and lovely the announcement was i got from avid…

    Stop Waiting and Start Working Now!
    Stop transcoding and start editing RED, QuickTime, and Canon tapeless media immediately
    Media Composer Software 5.0 - Directly access and edit RED files through AMA, without transcoding (images are scaled to HD frame size) Work natively with QuickTime video formats, including Apple ProRes and H.264

    you said it i tried it with an avid certified system and i have no solution till now. i am really really disappointed. after some years editing with avid i am close to loose a new client as i tried to convince him to NOT use his finalcut and to buy avid because of the NEW groundbreaking native workflows to save time and no need to transcode all the footage and to work native with 5d h264 files… (international campaign with all in all 70hrs footage)

    after i chose the ama native h264 workflow and it didn't work out because of stuttering playback (first disappointment) i tried to transcode to prores 422 hq to finish afterwards direct out of the avid (again with ama - playback fine - editing not really) … its not working because of a 3 sec freeze always after i cut out some footage from the timeline.

    Now i did a test with dnxhd 1:1 and it seems that this is the only format which deserves avids performance announcement.. or you need to buy one of the big systems in the list BUT forget the idea to edit native footage with the MediaComposer Software 5.0 on a certified system like the Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel with rorke raid

    The funniest thing is a video on youtube (NAB2010: demo avid media composer 5) where they present the performance with a notebook at the nab… how funny is that… forget it

    I don't understand it right now… what am i doing wrong? why is this certified system not working in the way avid announce it??

    can someone help??

    Thanks in advance!

    Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel 18GB; rorke galaxy aurora ls with 18 TB raid6 with atto fibre channel card connected; MCS v. 5.0.2 MacBook Pro 2... [view my complete system specs]
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  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 2:06 AM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
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    • Avid Employee
      Moderator: MCA Mac
      Moderator: MCA PC

    Re: AMA and native editing

    AMA is a great way to instantly view and select footage. However, you need a very fast storage solution to play it back. What are you using for storage? Are you trying to play clips from a card or USB drive? Tell us about your system.

    H.264 is the worst codec to use. Very compressed and doesn't play back well. If you have that codec, I would recommend using AMA the way you would FCP's log and capture. Use it to audition and play back your footage but transcode it to DNxHD to work with.

    I love the fact that I can instantly access footage as it comes from the set and pick takes with the director. Once I have my selects, I transcode them to an Avid-native codec.

    I've also worked directly from the folders when I'm in a hurry but I've found a fast computer and a fast, raided, storage array to be key.

    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 2:34 AM In reply to

    • denay
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    • Joined on Mon, Aug 9 2010
    • walachei
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    Re: AMA and native editing

     

    Thanks for your fast reply!

    I know... because of the long GOPs but why does it look like avid mediacomposer 5 is doing it now with ease?? why can't we see detailed information about performances and have to read always in between lines. I wouldn't sell it my client when the marketing wouldn't sell it... if you know what i mean.

    Sorry but i feel trapped somehow and after testing and setting up and no time for editing i am loosing trust in this software based product and the announcements.

    At the moment we work with a "rorke galaxy aurora ls" raid with 18 TB raid6 with atto fibre channel card connected. The system is setup on a Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel. Think it should be enough performance as the dnxhd 1:1 is doing it from the begining on with ease but not the prores 422 (hq)... why is such a big difference especially in between these two codecs?? does it has something to do with apple and avid?? they are both with intraframes and shouldn't be that difficult to work with or am i wrong?

    Why i am using prores and not dnxhd? because i have to buy on every system an mxf viewing software because the client wants to use the source files as an archive to ask years later for additional changes based on the hard drive they will get which will have the same structure as we have in the avid.

    And we want to finish right away without loosing time in between offline and online workflows.

    Thanks again for your time and help!

    Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel 18GB; rorke galaxy aurora ls with 18 TB raid6 with atto fibre channel card connected; MCS v. 5.0.2 MacBook Pro 2... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 3:13 AM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Lansing, MI
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    • Avid Employee
      Moderator: MCA Mac
      Moderator: MCA PC

    Re: AMA and native editing

    Ok well first off, I've been an editor for over 25 years. I've been on these forums much longer than I have worked for Avid. I owned my own post company before coming to Avid and even today, I would never sell something to a client before trying it out extensively first. Marketing, for any company is going to show you any product in the best light possible. It's up to us as editors to vet the tools we use in front of a client.

    Having said that, we want to first make sure your system is up to speed. With the upgrade to Snow Leopard and MC5, there was also an update to your ATTO drivers on ATTO's site. Have you applied the latest drivers to that card? Did you upgrade to Snow Leopard from Leopard? If so, did you do a wipe and install of SL?

    What slot is the card in?

    You must have the Pro Res codecs loaded onto your system in order to transcode to them. Otherwise the MC is doing realtime interpolation and will be slower. Do you have Final Cut on that Mac too? If not, where did you get the ProRes codecs?

    Let's start there and see if we can find any answers for you.

     

    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 3:46 AM In reply to

    • denay
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    • Joined on Mon, Aug 9 2010
    • walachei
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    • Points 80

    Re: AMA and native editing

    Thanks for your kind and honest words but when i don't have the money to build up editingsystems or a posthouse for testing then i need a strong partner whom i can trust and where i get the information i need. The pressure in the business keeps going and going and i want to buy my stuff where i get the best information support and help. And what i have written above is just the way i felt when i thought "yes they did it" and "no discussions anymore about other systems which can handle the footage i work with in a better way". And then when you do everything and had phonecalls with avid and they tell me that they feel sorry and the best and only way they know right now is to work with dnxhd. This was then not what i have expected to hear after reading the specifications and features on the website. And of course i try to do everything what they say and what i can do for it to set up the system in the way it should be.

    So here it comes to your questions... new installation with snow leopard no upgrade... latest atto driver from website installed... not sure about the slot (have to look again tomorrow morning) the files are already prores encoded with mpeg-streamclip and just picked via ama.

    Thanks for your help!

    Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel 18GB; rorke galaxy aurora ls with 18 TB raid6 with atto fibre channel card connected; MCS v. 5.0.2 MacBook Pro 2... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 9:04 AM In reply to

    • denay
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    • walachei
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    Re: AMA and native editing

    ok... the fast cards are in the fast lanes ... means the lowest slot is with the graphics card and the one above with the fibre channel card

    Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel 18GB; rorke galaxy aurora ls with 18 TB raid6 with atto fibre channel card connected; MCS v. 5.0.2 MacBook Pro 2... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 12:11 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Lansing, MI
    • Posts 17,731
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    • Avid Employee
      Moderator: MCA Mac
      Moderator: MCA PC

    Re: AMA and native editing

    So, you aren't really transcoding to Prores within the Avid. When we say "transcoding" we mean consilidation and Transcoding to an Avid file structure and an MXF wrapper.

    What you are doing is attempting to use very large Pro Res 422 files through AMA. Doable but, in my opinion as an editor, not somthing I would choose. ProRes is a very large codec and the Avid is trying to decode it on the fly.

    Can you try downloading the ProRes codecs from Apple's site and then just consolidating over to your Avid drives? This will just re-wrapp the codec in MXF format and should be better for playback.

     

    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 1:33 PM In reply to

    • denay
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    • walachei
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    • Points 80

    Re: AMA and native editing

    Yes i know... its not good to edit with such huge files especially if you want to edit a lot of footage. but that is what i understood what would be possible when you use the new Mediacomposer because from now on it just depends on the hardware you use…anyway… i tested today again and felt that the performance is good with less files but when i have 130 prores files within a 2:30 min timeline out of 10hrs of prores via ama and i try to playback its fine but if you cut something out ...not.

    I chose prores to acces the original files afterwards with quicktime on the desktop without any editing system.(but the performance is now more important to me)

    at the moment i am just worried about the performance and think I should choose a classic offline/online workflow... as i have to deliver 8x 3min edits in the end and don't want to have some more performance surprises in the end.

    or maybe better... when i see that the 5d is recording 420 8bit and the dnxhd 120 is 422 8bit than i do not need to conform or transcode to a higher format, or?! Is it possible to handle 10 hrs of dnxhd 120 without any performance problems with my configuration and do a proper color correction in the end?? Means link to ama -> transcode internal to dnxhd 120 -> edit 10 to 20 hrs within one project without any problems.

    What would you suggest to keep quality an beeing able to finish right away?

    I know that it works technically but my question is the performance in the end with my configuration. or do i need the new 12core for it ;)

    overall it could save some encoding time in the end i guess.

    Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel 18GB; rorke galaxy aurora ls with 18 TB raid6 with atto fibre channel card connected; MCS v. 5.0.2 MacBook Pro 2... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 1:48 PM In reply to

    Re: AMA and native editing

    denay:
    I chose prores to acces the original files afterwards with quicktime on the desktop without any editing system.

    You could save the QTs with the DNxHD codec and that also wouldn't require an editing system in order to play them back in QT.  You would need to have the DNxHD codecs installed on the system, just as you would need to have the ProRes codec installed on the system.

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 3:48 PM In reply to

    • denay
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    • Joined on Mon, Aug 9 2010
    • walachei
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    • Points 80

    Re: AMA and native editing

    thats true but not when i am using the internal transcoding "re-wrapping" process. then i will get a mxf file and as far as i know you have to buy another plugin to play the mxf files with quicktime. When i have to use the dnxhd for performance reason i am not sure if it should be via ama. do you know if there is a performance difference between qt dnxhd loaded via ama or transcoded as mxf. don't we have then the same issue as when we would use prores or others via ama?

     

    Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel 18GB; rorke galaxy aurora ls with 18 TB raid6 with atto fibre channel card connected; MCS v. 5.0.2 MacBook Pro 2... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 10 2010 4:16 PM In reply to

    • denay
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    • Joined on Mon, Aug 9 2010
    • walachei
    • Posts 8
    • Points 80

    Re: AMA and native editing

    ...but to be honest the most interesting for me is the little moment after cutting out some footage from the timeline... what is happening underneath the system that i can understand where the 3 sec freeze comes from?

    The only thing that i know is that in the begining when the timeline is nearly empty i don't have this problem but after some time it gets more and more.

    I am not sure if i am allowed to say that there is "only" around 2min of 10hrs of native prores in the timeline. And when i add my selecteds (28min out of 10 hrs) into the player monitor its even worse when i cut something away from the timeline. Adding footage, playback the timline and trim feels really fine.

    the processor is bored to the max the only thing is what i see with apples process monitor that the i/o at the disk drive raise up to 500 per second while the 3 sec freeze is happening in the timeline. but it doesn't look like this is max as we tested 700 possible iops. So the question is what is happening here?

    Mac Pro Dual 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel 18GB; rorke galaxy aurora ls with 18 TB raid6 with atto fibre channel card connected; MCS v. 5.0.2 MacBook Pro 2... [view my complete system specs]
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