Latest post Thu, May 29 2008 5:21 PM by kamm. 9 replies.
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  • Tue, May 20 2008 11:10 PM

    • kamm
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    Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

    Last week I checked MC3.0 and there's no sign of a proper, during-capture inverse telecine - will this *ever* be implemented? Did anyone notice at Avid that now you can get a pretty decent quality HDV Canon etc for B-roll from $1k...? It's there for NTSC, why is it such a pain to put in for HD as well?

    Pulldown removal is not only available in competing products like Canopus, Adobe (via Cineform), Apple etc but you can do it with freely downloadable tools. It's just plain lame it's still not there in *any* Avid.

    Avid apparently talks the talk but doesn't really walk anywhere - instead of chasing mode isn't it time to switch to preemptive mode?

    - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 | 2GB PC8500 | NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX | AGEIA Physx | LG DVD/R/RW/DL/R/RW | Avid Xpress Pro 5.8 - [view my complete system specs]
    ______ kamm ______
  • Wed, May 21 2008 6:44 PM In reply to

    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

    Is the pulldown removal real time during capture or is it a seperate step (a la Log and Capture + Compressore in FCP) for Edius, Cineform, and FCP?

    My guess, it is a pain in HD because you are handling more data thus the overhead is much bigger. With HDV's long GOP structure it means you need to decompress the signal first in order to get the proper frames, remove redundant fields, if standard pulldown - reverse 2 fields, and then combine them and then conform back to a proper HDV stream..

    It can be done with DVC Pro HD's 720/24p format because the frame structure are all I-Frames and the camera actually flags the frames for you.

     

    Edit: Looking at Cineform - it seems they can do real time via their Intermediate codec.

    FCP I know is Log and Capture + Compressor.

    Edius? Have not checked.

    MC 8.6.1, Windows 10, ASROCK X99M, Intel 5930K, Zotac GTX970, 32GB RAM, Transcend 512GB M.2 SSD & Dell U2713H. MBP 2012 Thunderbolt, OSX 10.10.5, MC... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, May 24 2008 5:42 PM In reply to

    • itmatters
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Jan 23 2006
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    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

     

    kamm:

    Last week I checked MC3.0 and there's no sign of a proper, during-capture inverse telecine - will this *ever* be implemented? Did anyone notice at Avid that now you can get a pretty decent quality HDV Canon etc for B-roll from $1k...? It's there for NTSC, why is it such a pain to put in for HD as well?

    Pulldown removal is not only available in competing products like Canopus, Adobe (via Cineform), Apple etc but you can do it with freely downloadable tools. It's just plain lame it's still not there in *any* Avid.

    Avid apparently talks the talk but doesn't really walk anywhere - instead of chasing mode isn't it time to switch to preemptive mode?

     

    If this is all true, I hope someone in mgmt is reading your comment and will give you a response that includes a simple NO/Never or YES/when, (but if history is any guide, we expect that won't happen- certainly not here where actual customers with actual needs might provide valuable feedback and requests)

    It would only make Avid look better if they offered some kind of Canon HV-series Release Note/Tutorial/Explanation/Helping hand to the hundreds of Canon HV "24p mode" users that want to edit their potentially-24P footage in Media Composer in a 23.97 Project. 

    What happens when the naive editor that assumes Avid is king and can handle any digital format, especially one thats now in a 2nd generation (first HV20, now HV30)?- How many hours will Avid customers spend re-doing their Captures into 3rd Party solutions in order to perform the needed pulldown removal? How many of them will be disillusioned seeing how easy it is for "lesser" software packages to do the job?.

     

    p.s. besides the Canon cold-shoulder, how did you like 3.0?

  • Sun, May 25 2008 5:11 PM In reply to

    • BobRusso
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    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

    Avid does have White Papers on all the supported cameras:

    <http://www.avid.com/resources/whitepapers/>

    There is a detailed list of supported devices in the Knowledge Base: <http://tinyurl.com/595p48>

    In 3.0 there's native support for the JVC 24p HDV cameras both via firewire and rewrap of the M2T files from a Firestore.

    At this point for the Canon camera I recommend using the Convergent Design HD-Connect SI DV Bridge or  alternatively files from the Convergent Design Flash XDR should work.

    https://www.youtube.com/avidevangelistbob [view my complete system specs]

    -- Bob Russo Post-Production Workflow Manager - NFL Films

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  • Mon, May 26 2008 12:16 PM In reply to

    • itmatters
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Jan 23 2006
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    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

    Thanks for trying to help, but the supported devices list and whitepapers you posted do not include mention of the Canon HV20 or HV30 cameras. I don't understand how the JVC support impacts the main question- that's not clear to me.

    What would be really great is if you could focus your fellow avid angels on this particular Canon HV-series 24P issue. Please coax them into considering the win-win value of having avid software do what the competition's software already can, namely firewire capture with simultaneous pulldown removal for Canon HV series cameras, and others. (http://tinyurl.com/5le5wb). Plain & simple, that is the request.

    btw, The Convergent product you suggested does not advertise being able to remove Canon's HV-series 24P-mode pulldown frames on the fly from the camera's 30i HDV output. Even if it did do that, the gear outputs an SD/HD SDI signal. I don't see how that helps anyone needing to capture HV20 or HV30 24P mode footage via firewire into a basic Software-only Media Composer.

    Thank you Bob, you're doing God's work. Please let us know what you can find out in terms of support.

  • Wed, May 28 2008 8:35 PM In reply to

    • PitBoss55
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    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
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    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

     A long-time supporter of AVID here, and a very happy owner of a Canon HV-30.

    I don't have much else to add to the conversation other than my name on this 'petition' for getting Avid's butt in gear so I can capture some of my beautiful 24p HDV footage.  I'm waiting.

    Filed under:
  • Thu, May 29 2008 4:37 PM In reply to

    • kamm
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    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • NYC
    • Posts 33
    • Points 390

    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

    Dom Q. Silverio:

    Is the pulldown removal real time during capture or is it a seperate step (a la Log and Capture + Compressore in FCP) for Edius, Cineform, and FCP?

    My guess, it is a pain in HD because you are handling more data thus the overhead is much bigger. With HDV's long GOP structure it means you need to decompress the signal first in order to get the proper frames, remove redundant fields, if standard pulldown - reverse 2 fields, and then combine them and then conform back to a proper HDV stream..

    It can be done with DVC Pro HD's 720/24p format because the frame structure are all I-Frames and the camera actually flags the frames for you.

     

    Edit: Looking at Cineform - it seems they can do real time via their Intermediate codec.

    FCP I know is Log and Capture + Compressor.

    Edius? Have not checked.

    Yep, Adobe w/ CIneform and all iterations of Edius (from $50 Neo to $$$$ Pro Broadcast) perform pulldown removal completely transparent during capture. Apple is FCP & Compressor but it's still painless.

    The most ridiculous thing is that Avisnyth/Vdubmod/etc tools are all working fine and FREE, someone made them in their free time - [why is it such a challenge for a supposedly professional company to do what even hobby coders already done in their free time?

    Avid, once again, not even late to the party but a no-show, period.

    Without this feature I won't upgrade my lic nor any Adrenaline at the stuido I work for.

    - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 | 2GB PC8500 | NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX | AGEIA Physx | LG DVD/R/RW/DL/R/RW | Avid Xpress Pro 5.8 - [view my complete system specs]
    ______ kamm ______
  • Thu, May 29 2008 5:08 PM In reply to

    • kamm
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • NYC
    • Posts 33
    • Points 390

    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

    itmatters:

     

    kamm:

    Last week I checked MC3.0 and there's no sign of a proper, during-capture inverse telecine - will this *ever* be implemented? Did anyone notice at Avid that now you can get a pretty decent quality HDV Canon etc for B-roll from $1k...? It's there for NTSC, why is it such a pain to put in for HD as well?

    Pulldown removal is not only available in competing products like Canopus, Adobe (via Cineform), Apple etc but you can do it with freely downloadable tools. It's just plain lame it's still not there in *any* Avid.

    Avid apparently talks the talk but doesn't really walk anywhere - instead of chasing mode isn't it time to switch to preemptive mode?

     

    If this is all true, I hope someone in mgmt is reading your comment and will give you a response that includes a simple NO/Never or YES/when, (but if history is any guide, we expect that won't happen- certainly not here where actual customers with actual needs might provide valuable feedback and requests)

    It's all true, trust me. I don't know if any decision-maker reads this forum but it's time to start listening ("we have listened") if they don't...

    It would only make Avid look better if they offered some kind of Canon HV-series Release Note/Tutorial/Explanation/Helping hand to the hundreds of Canon HV "24p mode" users that want to edit their potentially-24P footage in Media Composer in a 23.97 Project. 

    It's not just this issue but the general sluggishness, the foot-dragging that first comes into my mind when I think of new features and Avid - they have to seriously rethink the way they do their business or get out of the lower-tier (prosumer/freelance/etc) market because on the long run it'll be a waste of money for them too, let alone customers spending money a software that doesn't do half of what it claims to be able.

    Word goes around fast and so far anyone I asked was thinking about buying one of these cheap but high-quality 24p cameras at some point this year but they were all pissed as soon as I told them so far there's no support in Avid whatsoever. Of course, usual answer was 'well, but there's FCP, it can do it, right?" and while some wasn't totally happy with my answer - two-step process instead of a clean, transparent one during capture - they all got the main point: while FCP can, Avid cannot help them.

    OTOH Avid can't afford to ditch this market: this is where every editor starts and it's important what will be the tool they will get used to, really familiar with from the beginning but if one tool doesn't have features every other one has then it will be dropped, period. And on the long it will have an effect on the high-end market share.

    What happens when the naive editor that assumes Avid is king and can handle any digital format, especially one thats now in a 2nd generation (first HV20, now HV30)?- How many hours will Avid customers spend re-doing their Captures into 3rd Party solutions in order to perform the needed pulldown removal? How many of them will be disillusioned seeing how easy it is for "lesser" software packages to do the job?.

    Exactly, well said.

    p.s. besides the Canon cold-shoulder, how did you like 3.0?

    Well, it was quick, nice but of course, it wasn't my machine (and I consider it to be pretty fast with four ~3.6GHz cores) but some multi-CPU high-end box with uber-array under the desk so we'll see... :)

    New boxes are very slick though the way Avid was touting the PCI-e bandwidth advantage in 2008 just showed how far they are behind the curve - PCI-e is available for years now, it was long overdue for Avid to ditch the craptastic firewire stuff they were selling.

     

    - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 | 2GB PC8500 | NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX | AGEIA Physx | LG DVD/R/RW/DL/R/RW | Avid Xpress Pro 5.8 - [view my complete system specs]
    ______ kamm ______
  • Thu, May 29 2008 5:21 PM In reply to

    • kamm
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • NYC
    • Posts 33
    • Points 390

    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

    BobRusso:

    Avid does have White Papers on all the supported cameras:

    <http://www.avid.com/resources/whitepapers/>

    There is a detailed list of supported devices in the Knowledge Base: <http://tinyurl.com/595p48>

     

    Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately none of these 1080p24 HDV cams are listed there.

    In 3.0 there's native support for the JVC 24p HDV cameras both via firewire and rewrap of the M2T files from a Firestore.

    Unfortunately JVCs are completely different animals when it comes to pulldown - in fact they are not even 1080p but 720p if I'm not mistaking.

    At this point for the Canon camera I recommend using the Convergent Design HD-Connect SI DV Bridge or  alternatively files from the Convergent Design Flash XDR should work.

    Thanks for the tip - is is this one?

    If so then I'm afraid I'm not following you: what relevance does this it have here? As far as I can tell it's HDV->HD-SDI converter, nothing else, it won't remove my non-flagged Canon 24p pulldown, let alone defetaing the whole purpose of shooting with a cheap 1080p24 Canon as B-roll by having to buy some extra unit for $800 which in turn would require another extra unit with HD-SDI inputs, at least in the thousands of dollars range in Avid World...

    Care to elaborate? :)

    - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 | 2GB PC8500 | NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX | AGEIA Physx | LG DVD/R/RW/DL/R/RW | Avid Xpress Pro 5.8 - [view my complete system specs]
    ______ kamm ______
  • Mon, Jul 28 2008 3:13 PM In reply to

    • Jayson
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, May 5 2008
    • los angeles
    • Posts 373
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    Re: Any news on HD(V) pulldown removal...?

    is there any progress on the hv20/30 24p removal front. It's the only footage I use, which means, I have to capture through fcp. Which is good cause it keeps my fcp skills sharp. But it'd be so nicer to capture into avid and have all the benfits that come along with doing so.

    Avid 8.4.5 w/ Symphony x2 (1) iMac 2014 32gb Ram 4gb vram (2) Macbook Pro (just for writing not editing) (camera) Panasonic GH4 x2 [view my complete system specs]
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