Latest post Wed, May 21 2008 1:10 AM by TCurren. 182 replies.
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  • Thu, May 15 2008 12:58 AM In reply to

    • jwrl
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Melbourne, Australia
    • Posts 8,412
    • Points 97,305

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    Jumping back to the topic that this thread is about... one thing that has become obvious since Avid's "new thinking" is that for whatever reason, these forums have become exciting again.  Yes, the Mojo DX appears to be ill thought out and may not be a major seller, but suddenly people don't look at you blankly when you say you cut on Avid.  Avid at least has a presence in the marketplace again.

    I know that the LA editors don't see this, but for some time now the market has been deserting Avid in droves.  Now I'm getting students and assistants asking me where they go to learn it.

    It's very hard to turn a ship.  Avid appear to be doing it.  Let's just hope that they can manage it before they hit the iceberg.

    MC 7.0.4 - Asus P6T Deluxe V2 mobo - Intel i7 920 2.66GHz - Windows 7 Ult64 SP1 - nVidia Quadro FX 1800 - 16 Gbyte low latency DDR3 RAM - Internal 8 Tb... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, May 15 2008 1:23 AM In reply to

    • wmcole
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Posts 589
    • Points 7,820

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    That is a superfluous and irrelevant argument.  By that logic, since I paid $900 for an 80 MB SCSI hard drive for my animation station in 1992, I should not accept the value of paying less than half that amount for hundreds of times more storage in a single SAS drive today!

    Here is the point y'all are choosing to ignore. 

    Staying in business is about making sales.  Sales can less and less be generated by 'brand cache' and more and more by providing better (or at least competitive) value.  Most of what many want to use to excuse Avid on the value of DX hardware has nothing to do with the hardware but with software, (percieved) support, and / or cache or "brand ego".

    On a direct hardware to hardware compare, AJA, Blackmagic, MOTU, and Matrox do not have significantly less silicon, logic, design and manufacturing costs than Avid has for the DX hardware.  So, from a purchasing manager's point of view, they know they are being screwed, and to them the benefits of putting the extra money into another workstation, more / newer QC tools, or another fixed lens ENG camcorder rather then bending over and taking where the sun don't shine from Avid one more time is the right decision.

    Avid marketing clearly did no market survey (or at least none beyond the "yes men" and Avid groupies who have to be the first to know and have anything new and "Avid" because they think it makes them a Hollywood 'playa') in advance of DX design and manufacture.  If they had, both pricing and MojoDX features would have generated much less controversy.

    The bottom line is that Avid is playing into the hands of its competitors by choosing to be non-competitive and looking pretty inept in the process.  Many in the NAB press room actually discussed the possibility that Avid was really angling for a way to sell off the "Media Composer" family and stick strictly with broadcast operations, servers, networking, and edit-to-air products.  But the consensus was that no one would be interested in hanging the "albatross" of non-competitive hardware, falling sales, seats, and yes - even respect for MC - around their corporate bottom line.  In short, the majority of the press were not buying the "value" argument, so it is hard to see how "purse string managers" will either.

    One final note: the vast majority of Mojo sales and I'd say about 60% of NitrisDX with MC sales will be to non-broadcast, non-entertainment venues like hospitals, military, police, forensic labs, municipal governments, courts, Secret Service, etc. etc. etc.  The budgets for these agencies and institutions are under even more pressure due to the need for more ammo and armor for the middle east wars, than are broadcasters due to falling ad revenues. And I can recount ALREADY a number of these institutions swapping out their Windows Avid systems for Mac FCP systems because it gives them better flexibility for using new and legacy formats and equipment for significantly less than Avid. DX hardware pricing (and MojoDX's limited I/O set) will only accelerate that trend.

    AndrewAction:

    It is very easy for a price chisler to find reasons why they think they are being overcharged. Those reasons do not make your conclussions valid.

    Before Mojo was even dreamed of a component to FW IO for Avid DV was $5K US  (Laird 5500) Having brought one I have never had any use for a Mojo nor will I into the future.

     

     

    HP z840 dual 8-core; PCI slot 3, Creative SB X-Fi audio card; 32 GB Ram; 4 x 1 TB RAID 5 internal SATA Western Digital Caviar Green Media drives (appears... [view my complete system specs]

    -----

    wmc

  • Thu, May 15 2008 2:16 AM In reply to

    • TCurren
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Burbank, CA
    • Posts 2,994
    • Points 37,755

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    wmcole:
    And I can recount ALREADY a number of these institutions swapping out their Windows Avid systems for Mac FCP systems because it gives them better flexibility for using new and legacy formats and equipment for significantly less than Avid. DX hardware pricing (and MojoDX's limited I/O set) will only accelerate that trend.

    Avid cuts their prices by at least 50 percent and you say that will accelerate folks leaving the platform?

     

    I think they have bought themselves a little time. Maybe a year. By next year they better be innovating like crazy.

     

    The bottom line is that many of us feel the price of Avid is worth it. You don't. So why are you hanging around here trying to convince Avid to cut it's throat by trying to compete with FCP on price? They don't have the company structure to succeed in a commodity business.

     

    If you feel FCP is such a better deal, go buy it and hang out on the FCP boards instead of here. I think you'll be much happier. I know I will. :-)

    Symphony Nitris Classic, Symphony DX, MC Soft, MC Adrenaline, MC Adrenaline HD, Unity, Terrablock, ProTools [view my complete system specs]

    Terence Curren Alpha Dogs, Inc.

    Burbank, Ca

    www.alphadogs.tv

    www.digitalservicestation.com

    www.editorslounge.com

  • Thu, May 15 2008 9:59 AM In reply to

    • pedward
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Apr 8 2008
    • Posts 22
    • Points 260

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    I don't think proposing that market surveys are performed with a well distributed population (i.e. not just a niche group of Avid enthusiasts) is the same as proposing to cut it's throat.  I think it would lead to a better understanding of what pricing would maximize profits (finding the balance between volumes and margins) and long term growth.

    Along the lines of market surveys.. feedback be it positive or negative is likely to benefit Avid as useful information.  Which is probably why part of the "new thinking" strategy AFAIK meant increased contact and listening to customer feedback (good and bad).

  • Thu, May 15 2008 2:22 PM In reply to

    • VGUK2
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Dec 24 2007
    • Posts 292
    • Points 4,430

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    TCurren:

    wmcole:
    And I can recount ALREADY a number of these institutions swapping out their Windows Avid systems for Mac FCP systems because it gives them better flexibility for using new and legacy formats and equipment for significantly less than Avid. DX hardware pricing (and MojoDX's limited I/O set) will only accelerate that trend.

    Avid cuts their prices by at least 50 percent and you say that will accelerate folks leaving the platform?

     

    I think they have bought themselves a little time. Maybe a year. By next year they better be innovating like crazy.

     

    The bottom line is that many of us feel the price of Avid is worth it. You don't. So why are you hanging around here trying to convince Avid to cut it's throat by trying to compete with FCP on price? They don't have the company structure to succeed in a commodity business.

     

    If you feel FCP is such a better deal, go buy it and hang out on the FCP boards instead of here. I think you'll be much happier. I know I will. :-)

    TCurren, how do you think the increase in price of the NLE will affect the take up of Avid.  You might see MC as a bargain a new user to the platform can only see the large price differential and combined with the ludicrous pricing of the MojoDX this can only mean more customer go the way of the competition.

    Avid's prices may of halved but that doesn't make it any more affordable to get onto the bottom rung.  And for all those customers who don't need the realtime goodness of MC+NitrisDX you'd have a very difficult case to persuade people that MC or MC+MojoDX represented a better deal than can be found elsewhere.

    It's pretty clear to me that Avid is not interested in the market that is being eaten up by FCS or Adobe for that matter.  I think they consider that Pinnacle territory.  Avid have decided to dig in around the mid-end market and if that loses them customers so be it. 

  • Thu, May 15 2008 2:33 PM In reply to

    • MIkeFilm
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Apr 24 2006
    • Posts 262
    • Points 3,500

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    If this is a first for avid , we should wait and see, they really cut the prices on the high

    end products by alot.

    The MC looks like a killer app. , Also I had the chance to speak to avid about sub caps,

    they answered every question, and also sent me sample files.(they didn't have to)

    If they can come out with some sort of I-O box at a good price range it would be amazing.

     

    Mike

  • Thu, May 15 2008 3:19 PM In reply to

    • pedward
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Apr 8 2008
    • Posts 22
    • Points 260

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    MIkeFilm:

    If this is a first for avid , we should wait and see, they really cut the prices on the high

    end products by alot.

    The MC looks like a killer app. , Also I had the chance to speak to avid about sub caps,

    they answered every question, and also sent me sample files.(they didn't have to)

    If they can come out with some sort of I-O box at a good price range it would be amazing.

     

    Mike

    Yes it would.. and it would also bridge the gap between the accessibility of MC for students and the accessibility of MC for established mid-large sized companies with healthy budgets.  At the moment a student may learn MC because of Avid's student and educational intitutions discounts.  Some students may then get hired at an existing established MC-using company but some may immediately or eventually start as a freelance editor or join a start-up production company of some sort and find they cannot afford a basic MC solution (i.e. the software and some way to capture and preferably monitor properly).  Later on when they are established and grown their company and budget they may be able to afford an MC solution (incl hw) but at that point they may be settled in a different route.  So at the moment the path from student to proper Avid MC consumer seems to be broken.  It wouldn't make sense to expect people to learn on MC, then go to Pinacle and then jump back to MC.  Coming out with an I-O box at a good price would help fix this path.  And if MC 3.0 is as great as it seems to be based on people's initial feedback then Avid may be successfully strengthening (or "re-distinguishing") themselves as a clear market leader in NLE.  The other important point of focus IMO would be fixing the path to entry as an MC consumer.

     

  • Thu, May 15 2008 4:05 PM In reply to

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    pedward:
    So at the moment the path from student to proper Avid MC consumer seems to be broken.

    Hi,

    There's not really a path from student straight to small business owner/freelancer with equipment.  Most people make a couple of stops at post houses or networks or someplace else where they apply the theory they learned in school to real world situations for a few years before deciding to go out on their own.

    pedward:
    Some students may then get hired at an existing established MC-using company but some may immediately or eventually start as a freelance editor or join a start-up production company of some sort and find they cannot afford a basic MC solution (i.e. the software and some way to capture and preferably monitor properly). 

    I'm all for having reasonable pricing, but if you are suggesting that the pricing should be low enough that a 22 year old who has just graduated from school and has no actual experience should be able to start their own business or go out on their own as a freelancer with equipment, then I disagree.

    If someone is so talented and driven that that is what they want to do, let them save their money or get a small business loan like everyone else who wants to work for themselves.  I'd like to drive a Ferrari, but I don't expect them to lower the price so that I can afford one.

    good luck,
    Carl

     

    Media Composer 2020.6 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Z-Book G6 17", i7-9850H 2.60GHz, 32gb RAM, NVIDIA Quadro RTX 3000, Windows 10 Pro [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Thu, May 15 2008 4:27 PM In reply to

    • pedward
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Apr 8 2008
    • Posts 22
    • Points 260

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    Fair point.  I guess whenever they are ready to start-up (if thats after a few stops or projects) the barrier of entry is of course higher with a higher price.  And pennies saved or borrowed at that early stage can be precious.  A ferrari at a golf's price is unreasonable to expect but with regards to an entry level Avid I/O card its more a matter of expecting the option of purchasing a golf for the price of a golf. - so yeah, reasonable pricing as you suggest as well as the availability of an entry-level option.

  • Thu, May 15 2008 8:10 PM In reply to

    • MIkeFilm
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Apr 24 2006
    • Posts 262
    • Points 3,500

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    IF your starting off. the avid mojo is a great box at a great price.

    Mike

  • Thu, May 15 2008 9:05 PM In reply to

    • videoguy
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Plainview, NY
    • Posts 481
    • Points 6,680

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    I think one of the things you have to keep in mind is that it's not just software or just hardware. It's the total value you get from the solution. At $9995 Mojo DX is expensive, but back in January you were paying $4,995 for just the software plus $2,495 for the SD MOJOSDI. With bundle discounts you could get down to around $6500. Now for under $10K you get substantially more powerful software and HD I/O. That's a fraction of the cost of Adreneline. Of course if you're an Adreneline guy, then NitrisDX is more for you.

    I am curious about the ability to bring HD into the MojoDX and encode directly to DNxHD on the fly, in realtime while capturing.  Since MojoDX doesn't have any DNxHD hardware, this would be processor dependent. How many cores will you need for that?

    That said, the big question I have is "what if all you need is HD monitoring".

    I mean between HDV via FireWire, DVCProHD via P2 and now the new Sony XDCAMHD stuff, a large majority of editors do not need any kind of ingest. I'm not talking about the broadcast guys, but Sony, Canon, JVC & Panasonic are selling lots of these cams, and folks are going to want to edit the footage abd see what it looks like while they are working on an HD TV.


    To me the coolest thing would be if Matrox and Avid could get together and see just how hard it would be to allow the MXO to fill this gap in the market. Since it's an external device there is littel hardware compatability issues and it works with laptops or desktops. With FCP you get an amazing quality HD output right from the timeline via component or DVI. I can;t imagine that the quality would be anything less with Avid. It's probably just some pre-sets, tweaks and an Avid specific driver from Matrox. MXO is under a grand, wouldn't that be nice!!!

    Gary

    Media Composer 3.5 ASUS P6X58D-E w/ Intel i7 980 Hex-core, 24GB RAM, PNY Quadro4000, Win7, SATA Boot drive, G-Speed eS for video [view my complete system specs]

    Videoguys.com 800 323-2325 http://www.videoguys.com We are the Digital Video Editing & DVD Production Experts

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  • Thu, May 15 2008 10:04 PM In reply to

    • Blitzer
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Mon, Mar 3 2008
    • Posts 69
    • Points 955

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    To me, this seems the obvious flaw in the new lineup.  Certainly MCSoft can be used for logging and basic editing.  However, I see the future of my work to be mostly file based acquisition and delivery.  If it really is profitable to sell MC for $2,500, I think Avid is missing a huge opportunity by not having a monitoring solution to compliment it for under $1,500.

    MC 3.0.1 w/Mojo Analog MacPro 2.66 10GB RAM OS 10.4.11 QT 7.3.0 Internal RAID0 3x750GB Seagate w/ATTO XpressStripe v4.11 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, May 15 2008 10:35 PM In reply to

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

     Just for the record, the price of Media Composer DX Nitris is $14,995.00. That's $10,000 less than Media Composer SD Adrenaline sold for with vastly superior speed and performance. And when Media Composer was the "only kid on the block" in the early to mid 90's the price was $100,000. And that was down from the 1.5 to 3 million dollars it took to outfit a linear edit suite.

    The way I look at it, MC DX Nitris is less than the cost of most cars sold today. If I'm going to put food on the table for my family as a professional editor, this is a relatively small and prudent investment in my career future.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Thu, May 15 2008 11:11 PM In reply to

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    Larry Rubin:

     Just for the record, the price of Media Composer DX Nitris is $14,995.00. That's $10,000 less than Media Composer Adrenaline sold for with vastly superior speed and performance. And when Media Composer was the "only kid on the block" in the early to mid 90's the price was $100,000. And that was down from the 1.5 to 3 million dollars it took to outfit a linear edit suite.

    The way I look at it, MC DX Nitris is less than the cost of most cars sold today. If I'm going to put food on the table for my family as a professional editor, this is a relatively small and prudent investment in my career future.

    While your point is taken, it can only go so far in practical price consideration.

    Times and prices of products change as industry changes.  To point to the past may give some appreciation from where we've come, but it sounds like the implication is that any pricing structure today is suitable because it isn't anywhere near what we used to pay.  I would take issue with this assumption.

    If you were to buy a computer today, would you pay $1649 for a computer with 32Mb RAM, 300 Mhz Power PC CPU, 800 x 600 LCD, and 3.2 Gb Hard Drive because it is much cheaper than when you bought an original Apple II (over $3000 in 1981)?

    Also, I also find it interesting that the statement is regarding a "professional editor".  Are all Avid users professional editors?  I'm not saying you are incorrect, I just find it an interesting statement.

     

    Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 2.66Ghz 3 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 (2x1GB, 2x512MB;) XFX GeForce 8800GT 512MB 250 GB Seagate HD (System) 3x500 GB Western Digital... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, May 15 2008 11:20 PM In reply to

    Re: New Avid marketing about new products

    Larry Rubin:
    That's $10,000 less than Media Composer Adrenaline sold for with vastly superior speed and performance.
    Slight correction. That is $20,000 less than MCA HD if you are you comparing Apples with Apples.

    There is no obligation to destroy MC's value to satisfy an entry level group who cannot not see the value of the product. Who consistently display a Walmart mentality when it comes to buying the tools of their trade. 

    As many have suggested take a step back and look at the big picture. That is actual cost of buying and running any NLE for its shelf life. Not the Gimme now purchase price which will ultimately be totally irrelevant to you after 4 years of earning a living with your NLE.

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