Latest post Mon, Feb 11 2008 12:44 PM by Al . 13 replies.
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  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 11:55 AM

    • Al
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    Crying [:'(] Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    After searching the forum archives I noticed this problem has come up before, going back to 2006,
    but after trying each solution presented (and having noticed that on at least one thread the poster never seemed to resolve his problem) I've decided to post this new thread with as much detailed info as possible. I've been pulling my hair out for days as I export endless new sequences at different settings and then burn DVDs, only to find that the problem does not go away. The issue is the infamous "jigsaw" artifact effect, or whatever you want to call it, meaning that when viewing the resulting DVDs, when the camera pans, images "tear" and kind of spazz out. This seems most noticeable when panning past straight vertical objects, but is
    not limited to only this circumstance. My suspicion is that this is all the result of an interlacing issue in iDVD, but I have certainly learned that I am capable of overlooking the obvious or being wrong. What I don't understand is that with all of us out there working on Avids and using iDVD, either there does not seem to be a unified ideal export setting that resolves this issue, or I am having a comparatively unique problem. The shame is that most of the DVDs are looking great, and it is only this one issue that is sabotaging completion of this project. I'm at my wits end, so any and all knowledgeable help is supremely appreciated. Help me keep my hair. Stick out tongue

    When viewing any of these exported clips within quicktime player, the jigsaw is not visible.
    But when viewing the burned DVDs on my Mac, the jigsaw is visible.
    When viewing the burned DVDs on my Panasonic HDTV (TH-42PX75U) the jigsaw is visible.
    When viewing the burned DVDs on my Sony Trinitron Production monitor (non HD), the jigsaw is visible.

    Avid Software: Avid Xpress DV 3.5.0
    Editing system info: Mac G4 "Mirror door" model - Dual 1.2 Ghz PowerPC - memory 1024 MB
    OS Software on Editing System - OS X version 10.2.3
    Quicktime version on Editing system: QT version 6.3
    Software used to burn DVDs: Idvd 8 version 7.0.1
    Computer used to burn DVDs:  MacBookPro3,1 - Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2 GHz (codec downloaded from Avid and installed - prior post about video not displayed in QT exports was due to missing codec)
    Quicktime version on Computer used to burn DVDs - QT Version 7.4 (92) (with Pro upgrade)
    DVD media used: TDK DVD-R 8X 4.7GB

    Info on sequence I am burning - A 1 hour and 50 minute program of African wildlife footage
    all shot on regular mini DV tapes. Camera used was the Panasonic AGDVX100A on the
    24 frame setting that does not require a software fix (the correction is done in camera).
    All the footage was digitized using this camera as my Sony DVcam deck seems to need a
    cleaning (audio artifacts are audible). The resulting exported movies all wind up at about
    23 GB. The exports take many hours, and the burning takes over 8 hours each time, so you can
    imagine the amount of time I've spent on this so far. When viewing any of these exports afterward within
    quicktime player, the "jigsaw" is not visible. It only becomes visible after burning them and then
    watching the dvd. All burns in iDVD 8 are using the "professional" burn mode.

    Export settings and iDVD 8 result summary -

    1) Exported at "same as source" yields arguably the absolute worst result, as I rather suspected
    with the whole field / interlacing issue, but I was feeling hopeful.

    2) Trying to bypass Quicktime by using "dvstream" as the export setting also yields a
    very poor result. This jigsaw problem does not occur, but the resulting image is terrible.
    Very milky blacks, the compression is worse, as in much more noticeable, than any other export,
    and the image is soft and thin looking, rather anemic, and it ruins the visuals completely.
    What is a bit odd to me however is that I had been using dvstream to burn DVDs of other
    projects for years on prior versions of iDVD and it never seemed to be a problem. As I
    tried this one first, without having the Avid codec installed in my MacBook (which I use
    to burn as I can run iDVD8 on it, also meaning that trying quicktime reference is not an option,
    I must export, then move the completed export to my macbook pro), I am currently exporting it one
    more time to see if installation of the codec fixes the horrible compression and color result,
    but I am not hopeful at all.

    3) Tried using Blackdog's recommendation to another user, albeit using different software
    than I am running, but it didn't work. This recommended using 720 X 480 - crop/pad - RGB color levels -
    even (lower field first) - native dimension 720 x 480. This goes back to a post in 2006.

    One question - the native format of my exports is 720 x 480. Under pixel aspect ratio,
    should I be trying more exports by selecting "square?" I had been using "4:3 Non-square" when
    exporting just about anything for years and never seemed to have an issue. In this software, it does
    not say "Native dimensions (720 X 480)" as it does in other others. It simply says "square."
    Since choosing square did not seem to work in this test, I am wary of going through every
    possible combination of settings with "square" unless I have good reason to think it will
    solve the problem.

    4) Using another Blackdog suggestion to try the "Animation" setting for video
    instead of "Avid DV" is not a viable option. The infamous "2 GB limit" message
    comes up as the export nears completion and aborts. This message does not appear
    with any other export setting (ironically it does, but only if I do not have enough open disc
    space to save it!)Even when cutting my sequence in half, the same problem occurs. Even
    if I could get it to work, the result would be useless if it meant I had to send people several
    DVDs of the program chopped up into little bits.

    5) Heres a summary of other export attempts all using Quicktime movie and "Avid DV" for video, keeping in mind the info I read here about how at least one version of iDVD had the field order (ntsc vs pal)
    reversed a while back. I would expect that Apple has fixed this problem by now, but just in case...
    a) odd field - 720 x 486 - 601 - crop/pad - 4:3 Non-square
    b) odd field - 720 x 480 - 601 - crop/pad - 4:3 Non-square
    c) even field - 720 x 486 - 601 - crop/pad - 4:3 Non-square
    d) even field - 720 x 480 - - 601 - crop/pad - 4:3 Non-square

    Suggestions to buy a different dvd burning program or new software are nice and all,
    but I simply cannot afford it. I also have a fear that if I were to try a different program that the
    same darn thing would happen, as no one seems to be able to say with 100% certainty that this
    specific problem would be fixed. The only thing that would be worse than my sense of hopelessness and
    helplessness at present would be spending more money and still not having this maddening issue be resolved.

    Help... and thanks to any of you who take the time to read this epic length post and reply!

    BTW - if my physical explanation of this "jigsaw" is innacurate or confusing, I can post or send a picture of what it looks like on the finished DVDs, but it seems identical to the problem posted by others prior.
  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 1:23 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    iDVD is the issue here. We've always had issues with its MPEG2 encoder.

    Try encoding your MPEG 2s in Sorenson or Compressor first.
    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 3:23 PM In reply to

    • Al
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    Great info, but please forgive my ignorance here. If you are saying to use Sorenson or Compressor I would have to buy them, wouldn't I? Compressor comes with DVD studio pro or Final Cut I believe, I don't have either program. Looking on the net for downloads all I see are version updates for people who already own this program. And Sorenson would also be a program I'd have to buy, right? As I mentioned in my post, that is not an option. Please tell me if I am wrong. I can select sorenson or sorenson 3 when I export from my Avid so I guess I can try that but it doesn't sound like this is what you are saying. Are you saying to export my sequence (at "same as source?") and then encode it with one of these two before using Idvd 8? Doesn't this mean my material is going to be compressed a second time by iDVD? I've never used iDVD to burn a DVD whose media was already encoded. I know my post was long, but your response is so short I'm left with more questions than answers...
  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 4:48 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    Yes, you would have to purchase either program.

    I don't use iDVD so I haven't spent a lot of time troubleshooting this. I found that the same QT movie would burn perfectly in DVDSP but not in iDVD. After that, I pretty much wrote off iDVD.

    So, a couple of experiments I would try first.

    First thing to ensure is that your video is all in one codec in your timeline. If it isn't, do a mixdown. then, export your sequence in a codec OTHER than Same as source that will allow you to save the image at a file size of 720 x 480 and choose the Crop option instead of fit.

    If, after you burn that QT, you still have the interlacing issues, try it again but this time choose the field order as UPPER field.
    If it doesn't work after that, I'm at a loss. Like I said, never had much use for iDVD.
    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 5:42 PM In reply to

    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    AL:

    My advice on this issue would essentially mirror BLKDOG's most recent post. I would also suggest trying upper for file field order, as this does very much seem like the root of the problem.  I know you're frustrated, but perhaps more experiments with combinations and permutations of settings is in order here. Isolate a 10 to 30 second clip of the most problematic motion that results in the jigsaw artifact and use that to start the process - at least you won't have to wait very long to view the results and move on.

    We use Sorenson Squeeze and Sonic DVDit at TPC and have been satisfied with the results.  However, I notice similar jigsaw and tearing artifacts when I export a QT to After Effects and then re-import an AE comp back into Avid. The AE comp plays clean in Quicktime, but shows up with undesired motion artifacts, and I have maintained lower field first all the way through the process. I have never been able to find an effective solution to this problem.  Further, and even more frustrating, some colleagues of mine look at the playback and say "what artifacts?"   AAAAAAAUUUUURRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 5:45 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    Larry, when you get the footage into AE, Are you interpolating the footage by selecting the QT asset and hitting "CMD+F" (CTRL+F for you)?


    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 5:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    Todd:

    No, I wasn't aware of that function. I'm still a relative newcomer to AE and learning my way around, self taught.  Where in the process would that take place?

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 5:57 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    Right after you import the asset Larry. Just select it, hit CTRL+F and tell it to display the QT as Lower field first. The interlacing will go away.
    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 6:09 PM In reply to

    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    Thanks very much, Todd. I will try that on the next comp involving exported video from Media Composer.  What's really odd is that when the comp is imported and displayed as an Avid clip - any graphic elements created in AE with movement look liquid smooth - it's only the Avid footage elements that display the motion artifacts.
    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Sun, Feb 10 2008 11:39 PM In reply to

    • Al
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    Wow - I wish there was a similarly simple solution to my problem! Thanks so much to both of you for responding. I guess experiments will have to continue, only I'll use a short clip as suggested. Unfortunately the suggestion to use DVD SP or Compressor seems to boil down to my having to spend $1,500 on Final Cut Studio which contains both programs. In fact, I can't even find any listings for either of these programs that will allow you to buy them solo or seperate, you seem to have to buy the whole enchilada, which is ludicrous. Can't afford it, and I think it's sad that I have to waste so much of my time trying to fix this problem or cough up so much money for a program I don't need.
  • Mon, Feb 11 2008 12:20 AM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    Another, cheaper, solution for you is Roxio's Toast.

    Does a very nice job of burning DVDs.
    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Mon, Feb 11 2008 1:07 AM In reply to

    • Al
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    It's funny, I own Toast 6 and it never occurred to me! I guess because I never had a lot of confidence in what the compression would look like and thought I couldn't do a menu on the DVD etc. But I just checked out toast 8 on the web and it looks like it'll do the trick and more. Now here's the part that makes me extremely nervous... what the heck avid settings should I use when exporting the sequence to burn in toast?! What do you think?
  • Mon, Feb 11 2008 2:05 AM In reply to

    • Al
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    I bought Toast 8 via download (said I'd get a $20 rebate but after downloading the program and rebate the fine print says rebate expired last year - doh!) and am quite hopeful - there is a field dominance selection under advanced settings which is a happy thing. I'm going to try to burn the very last export I tried, which used Sorenson 3 at highest compression (and came out about 10 GB bigger than all prior exports) and see what happens. After all the tests I did, spending a week at it, and after my epic length detail of my attempts, it took your mentioning Toast for me to hopefuly finally find a solution (I think). Thank you blackdog!
  • Mon, Feb 11 2008 12:44 PM In reply to

    • Al
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    Re: Megalon vs Jigsaw - burned DVDs show odd artifacting when camera pans w/vertical objects

    PROBLEM SOLVED! Thanks to having downloaded Toast 8, the dreaded interlacing has disappeared. The first test made me nervous. I exported from Avid using Sorenson and using the "automatic" settings for Toast's detection of fields etc. The DVD still had the jigsaw at the same spots, but it was not as pronounced as some of the tests with iDVD. I then exported "same as source" and used the advanced settings in Toast to tell it "lower field" and maxed the compression settings as much as I could without exceeding disc space. The DVD result is the best looking I've seen so far and all interlacing artifacts are gone! Thanks Blackdog!
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