Latest post Tue, Jun 26 2018 9:35 PM by wkumingo. 15 replies.
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  • Tue, Jun 19 2018 7:39 PM

    • wkumingo
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    Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    I've found a problem in that the black level of the BM Intensity is getting crushed too low, I verified this with an external scope but I'm not sure if the problem is with the Blackmagic drivers or with Media Composer.

    In short, looking at SMPTE color bars and Avid's Y-Waveform I can see the 3 little black strips including the blacker-than-black 3.5 IRE strip. But viewing the HDMI output of the BM Intensity on an external monitor the output the 3.5 IRE strip has been clipped off.

    To verify I also ran the signal through an external waveform monitor and see that the 7.5 IRE black has shifted all the way down to 0, thereby chopping off the 3.5 IRE strip below 0.

    I have tried in combination with BM drivers 10.9.12, 10.10, and 10.11 as well as MC 2018.3, 2018.4 and 2018.5.

    Video output levels of the project are correctly set to REC 709.

    I know the output was correct sometime mid- last year. When I calibrated my monitor at that time I could see all three black strips correctly.

    See screenshots... Any help would be appreciated!

     

     

     

    Self-built -- Always current MC version with Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, System: X99 Motherboard and Core i7-6850K, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jun 22 2018 4:50 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    I don't have an external scope, but I am able to see the 3.5 ire strip on my external monitor (UHD TV).  I'm using driver version 10.9.9.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Fri, Jun 22 2018 4:53 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    In looking back at your description, something is expanding legal to full range. But that's not happening on my system.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Fri, Jun 22 2018 7:06 PM In reply to

    • wkumingo
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Thanks for looking on your system, I appreciate it! What version of Media Composer are you running? I also can't check the driver because I don't see a version 10.9.9 on Blackmagic's support site, it jumps from 10.9.7 to 10.9.10. Can you confirm that too? I'd really like to get this working properly... thanks!

    Self-built -- Always current MC version with Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, System: X99 Motherboard and Core i7-6850K, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jun 22 2018 7:48 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    What you show in you third picture (External) is in fact what you should be seeing.  The negative going pluge pulse is supposed to be below 0 ire.  That is shown as well in your second picture (which I assume is the on board Avid scope).  The level of Black (not the negative pluge) is zero as shown on the scale.

    The thing to keep in mind is that in the digital world back is really 0 ire, not 7.5.  7.5 is the old analog standard.  The Avid scope in picture 2 is showing black at 0 ire as it should.

    As to why the negative pluge pulse is clipped, that may well be the nature of Blackmagic's HDMI output.

    How did you feed the external scope?

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Fri, Jun 22 2018 8:47 PM In reply to

    • wkumingo
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Hi Jef- thanks for the info, but I beg to differ. The BM output once mimicked the Avid scopes, and the negative pluge should be visible. I calibrated the equipment last year when I first installed the card and everything worked as expected. If it didn't, I would've raised a flag at that time because I wouldn't have been able to calibrate my monitor's brightness. I only just now noticed that something is different because I wanted to recalibrate everything.

    What BM driver and MC versions are you running? I can install those to compare but I don't want to do it blindly.

    Also, DStone says he can see the 3.5 strip.

    FYI I feed the external scope by HDMI, same as the monitor. I tried them independently, with nothing in series or in between the BM and each device.

    Self-built -- Always current MC version with Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, System: X99 Motherboard and Core i7-6850K, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 23 2018 12:18 AM In reply to

    • wkumingo
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Premiere's output to an external monitor works as expected, so it seems this is a Media Composer issue.

    Screenshots below are (1) SMPTE bars in Premiere with proper 3.5 IRE level, (2) SMPTE bars on External Waveform showing an exact match to Premiere's waveform, and (3) the 3.5 IRE strip clearly visible on External monitor.

     

     

     

    Self-built -- Always current MC version with Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, System: X99 Motherboard and Core i7-6850K, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 23 2018 2:03 AM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Ok, I will keep this as short as possible.   And please know I am not trying to talk down to you.  I just do not know you background.  Mine is 25 years (gad!!) in broadcast post production.

    You keep referring to the lower pluge pulse as 3.5 ire.  As I wrote before, that refers to older, analog composite video measurement where black was measured as 7.5 ire and white as 100 ire.  That is the past and a common confusion point.

    Rec 709 HD video levels, when measured on a scope with IRE markings, has black at 0 IRE and white at 100 IRE.  For some reference reading:

    https://wolfcrow.com/blog/what-is-full-swing-studio-swing-and-how-to-work-with-video-levels-in-adobe-premiere-pro-part-one/

    Avid’s on board Y Waveform scope measures in the 709 scale.  Below is from the Avid help doc:  Waveform and Vectorscope Commands

    ============

    Displays a Waveform monitor with luma information. Luma is the brightness of an image without regard to color.

    The scale on the left is a digital level scale using a 256-step (eight-bit) range; 16 is the level for black, and 235 is the level for white.

    The scale on the right shows the amount of white in the image as a percentage; 0% represents black, and 100% represents white.

    Parts of an image can have values outside the 0% to 100% range. The digital video standard allows for headroom and footroom so you can correct a mistake in level in the postproduction process. The minimum is digital 0 or –8%, and the maximum is digital 255 or 108%

    ============

    Ok, if we can agree on that, the next issue is to get a color bar signal into Avid correctly. Not as easy as it should be.  Below is also from the Avid doc but unfortunately has not been updated to show the current Avid menu naming.  Specifically to section 8b Color Levels.  The current choice should be Do Not Modify, Treat As Legal Range.

    ============

    To import a test pattern from a file:

    1. Open an existing bin, or create a new one for the test pattern.

    2. Select the destination bin.

    3. Select File > Input > Source Browser.

    4. Navigate to the folder containing the test pattern file.

    Test pattern files are located in the following folder:

    - (Windows) drive:\Program Files\Avid\Avid editing application

    \SupportingFiles\Test_Patterns

    - (Macintosh) Macintosh HD/Applications/Avid editing application/ SupportingFiles/Test_Patterns

    5. Select a test pattern file:

    - 8-bit PICT files are located at the top level of the Test_Patterns folder.

    - 16-bit TIFF files are located in the HD_720p, HD_1080i, SD_NTSC, and SD_PAL folders.

    The file name appears in the File Name text box (Windows) or the Go to text box (Macintosh).

    6. Click the Import button on the bottom left of the Source Browser window.

    7. Click the Import Settings button to open the Import Setting dialog.

    8. Click the Image tab, and select the following options:

    a. Select 601/709, non-square from the Aspect Ratio, Pixel Aspect area.

    b. Select 601/709 from the Color Levels area.

    c. Click OK to save the settings and close the dialog box.

    9. Click OK to close the Import Settings window.

    10. Click Import on the bottom right of the Source Browser window..

    The clip for the imported file appears in the selected bin.

    ============

    And you should ONLY use the classic Import tool as Linking to the .tiff files provided will bring the levels in at incorrect levels.  Way to go Avid.

    You have to trust me on this or everything else is a waste of our time.  If you can not absolutely trust your test signal, all is lost.

    All this said, with correctly imported SMPTE bars in a 709 Avid sequence your white chip should be at 100 on the right hand scale of the Y Waveform scope and black (the majority of the low side of the signal) will be at 0.  The small pluge pulse on the right will go below 0.   Anything else is incorrect.

    Now let’s look at the screen grabs from Premiere you posted.  Forget the pluge pulse for now.  Look at the white chip on the Adobe Scope (picture 1).  It is not reaching 100 on the left scale.  It is about 92 or thereabouts.  That is the big clue that the file being used in Premiere is not being interpreted at the correct levels.

    To test this I fired up Premiere.  I chose New Item / Bars and Tone.  I put those in a sequence and looked at them on the Lumetri Scopes set to Waveform type / Luma.  Levels are where I expect them - White 100, Black 0.  Then I navigated to where Avid keeps its test files (see above) and imported the same file I used in Avid.  And, as expected, the levels on the Premiere scopes are wrong.  They are what I see in your picture 1 in your recent post. Whites low, blacks high. Why is a different discussion.

    This is a lot to chew on.  But I stand by my original statements.  I hope this is helpful.  I am happy to add more if you would like.  If you don’t believe me, I am sorry to have wasted your time.

    Good luck,

     

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sat, Jun 23 2018 2:03 AM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Double post sorry.

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sat, Jun 23 2018 2:39 AM In reply to

    • wkumingo
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Thanks Jef. What version of the BM driver are you using and which version of MC so we can compare oranges with oranges. Thanks.

     

     

    Self-built -- Always current MC version with Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, System: X99 Motherboard and Core i7-6850K, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 23 2018 2:49 AM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Not using BM on my home system.  AJA.  Work, we use a mix.  Sorry can't help with that now.

    As to why you Monitor might be clipping, try this.

    In Avid color corrector Curves, Master pull the blacks (lower left control).  This should raise the black level with out touching the white.

    I would not be surprised if the pluge pulse shows up on the monior.

    My theory is the the HDMI feed from the BM card is clipping any levels below 0 or above 100.  What does that show you?

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sat, Jun 23 2018 7:28 AM In reply to

    • wkumingo
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Can someone with AN ACTUAL BLACKMAGIC CARD chime in here please?

    Self-built -- Always current MC version with Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, System: X99 Motherboard and Core i7-6850K, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jun 25 2018 7:17 PM In reply to

    • Heff
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    I am running MC 8.4.5 with BMD Intensity Pro 4K card, drivers 10.9.11.

    I have the same problem.

    HDMI Output from the card is crushed.

    I'm using a BMD Mini Converter to get HDSDI to a Flanders and looped into a Sony/Tektronix WFM 1125.

    I hope someone here can offer a solution, or I'll have to go back to AJA IO Express, which has an HDSDI out that I can trust.

    Heff

     

    Z620, AJA IoExpress, MC 8.4.5 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jun 25 2018 9:57 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    I have the BMD Intensity Pro 4K. That's what's connected to my external monitor. Unfortunately, I don't have an external scope to validate the actual levels. I do see the 3.5 ire bar on my monitor. But I have not calibrated that monitor and cannot claim that it's not overdriving the display.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Mon, Jun 25 2018 10:00 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K output level is too low

    Here's a thought; if you have the capability, check the levels on the component out and see if it's the same.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

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