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  • Mon, Aug 14 2017 8:16 PM

    • cmaeditor
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    5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    I am in the midst of finishing a feature film for a festival premiere and ran into an error with how Avid handles 5.1 tacks.

    My director asked me to create a quicktime file that we could screen with our newly produced 5.1 mix. I imported the 6 individual tracks into Avid making sure to set Multichannel Audio settings in the import settings the 5.1 order to SMPTE (L,R,C,LFE,Ls,RS). I sync’d the new mix to the assembly of the color graded reels. I exported a Quicktime with the 5.1 option checked in the audio format section in the output settings.

    I got word from the projectionist that the tracks were not in the SMPTE order and that what should be the Center channel was going out the R channel. He rewatched his speaker to fix it, but I decided to check the situation out to see what had gone wrong.I opened up the quicktime. at the Chaneel order read SMPTE (L,R,C,LFE,Ls,RS). I then went back into the Avid and turned on the Waveforms in the timeline and that revealed that the track order was not SMPTE but ProTools (L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE) but was saying it was SMPTE in the file exports.

    I decided to import the 5.1 mix again, but set the channel order to ProTools (L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE) and when I turned on the waveforms in my timeline the order was SMPTE (L,R,C,LFE,Ls,RS). I exported a new quicktime and looking at the movie info in the Quicktime Player (doesn’t matter if it’s X or 7.6) and the channel order listed was SMPTE (L,R,C,LFE,Ls,RS) there as well.

    I decided to do some further tests and no matter what order the channels are in Avid says they are always in SMPTE order when exporting a 6 channel wav or a quicktime with multichannel audio. This is a bug in my opinion and needs to be fixed.

    Mid 2015 15" Macbook Pro 16GB Ram AMD Radeon R9 M370X [view my complete system specs]

    CMA

  • Mon, Aug 14 2017 8:50 PM In reply to

    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    First thing you should understand: setting the track order does NOT tell Avid how to import the channels, it only sets the way Avid should interpret the order of the imported tracks (it lets you tell MC what is on A1/A2/A3 etc). Switching track order in this setting does not change the actual clip from one format to the other, it merely is a way for you to tell Avid what the order of the tracks _is_, so that MC can route it properly under the hood. In fact, you can change this setting after import, via Clip->Modify->Set Multichannel Audio.

    If you AMA-link to a set of monophonic files labled .L.wav, .R.wav, .C.wav etc, that should autodetect a 5.1 BWAV group and it will map them into a 6-ch clip in SMPTE order -- this means that if you leave the clip set to multi-mono, L.wav ends op on A1, R.wav on A2, C.wav on A3, etc. So you should set the multichannel settings for such a clip to SMPTE and MC will treat the channels appropriately.

    If you imported them via traditional File-Import, it depends on how you brought the tracks in. See more info here.

    Internally, Avid works in Pro Tools order, and your waveforms (and the 5.1 meters in the Audio Mix Tool) should always be showing L/C/R/Ls/Rs/LFE, regardless of the source format of the 5.1 clips. So if they look like SMPTE order, that means you set the multichannel settings incorrectly.

    When you have 5.1 monitoring installed, you can either use 5.1 SMPTE order or 5.1 Pro Tools order for _monitoring_ regardless of how these 5.1 clips have been brough it. Once it's a correct 5.1 clip inside MC, you can monitor in either format, as long as you set it appropriately.

    QT Same As Source Exports from MC in my experience are always in SMPTE order, as are 5.1 multichannel WAV exports. No settings to change that.

    MC will correctly remap (as long as the channel order inside MC is correct). If you selected a Custom Export, there's also 5.1 channel order settings in the Custom QT export sound settings Tab.

     

    If you want more control, import the individual channels as six individual mono master clips. Add them to a timeline with 6 mono tracks. Open the Console and type 'AudioExtras', and tick the box that says 'Allow LFE only tracks'. Go to the timeline, bring up the Audio Mix Tool, pan each track as desired, right-click the track that has the LFE channel, and set it to 'Make LFE only'. Still, if you export this to Same As Source QT or to 5.1 WAV, channel order will always be SMPTE.

     

    Can I ask: how exactly did your source files look (name and format), how did you go about importing them, and was your export Same As Source or Custom?

     

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  • Mon, Aug 14 2017 11:04 PM In reply to

    • cmaeditor
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    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    Choosing the 5.1 order in the import settings does change the order that they are placed in the 5.1 track. Contrary to your linked document from 6 years ago, Avid reads the filename.C.wav as the correct channel it should be in the 5.1 order, it just is reversing the order depending on the order you choose. If you shooce SMPTE order (L,R,C,LFE,Ls,RS) in your settings during import it will place them in the ProTools order(L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE) in the 5.1 audio track it creates. The opposite is true as well. I am writing a blog post with screen captures during ingest, inside Avid and during export, showing this.

    This is how my files wer labelled:

    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.C.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.L.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.LFE.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.Ls.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.R.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.Rs.wav

    I imported them in useing the Import Media option from Media Composer. I set up the order to be SMPTE and when they were imported the tracks wer layed out in ProTools order. see the screen shot below:

     photo Avid Audio SMPTE_Order.png

     photo SMPTE Avid.png

    As you can see the track order shown is ProTools(L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE) not SMPTE(L,R,C,LFE,Ls,RS)

    I decided to import them in using the ProTools order (L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE)and the tracks are put in the SMPTE order. See this screen shot below:

     photo PROTOOLS Avid.png

    As you can see the track order shown is SMPTE(L,R,C,LFE,Ls,RS) not ProTools(L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE).

     

    Mid 2015 15" Macbook Pro 16GB Ram AMD Radeon R9 M370X [view my complete system specs]

    CMA

  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 11:08 AM In reply to

    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    5.1 group detection has apparently been added recently, I will add this to the document.

    Still, if it does, we'll need to establish the order in which MC then imports those channels. This is NOT determined by the set multichannel audio setting. I just tested this in 8.8.4 and the import order appears to be Film / Pro Tools (L/C/R/Ls/Rs/LFE).

    cmaeditor:
    Choosing the 5.1 order in the import settings does change the order that they are placed in the 5.1 track.
    Sure, but it is not a way to _set_ the channel order, it is a way to tell MC what the incoming channel order _is_.Yes, if you change it, MC will alter the way the channels are mapped. Just un-5.1 the clips and you will see the same signal on A1.

    Don't take my word for it, but please do import a 5.1 group, once with the Multichannel settings set to SMPTE, once set to Pro Tools order, once keep it mono. After importing, in the bin, select them all, choose Clip->Modify-Set Multichannel Audio, and set them all to mono. Note how they should all have the same channel on the same audio track in the clips.

    cmaeditor:
    If you shooce SMPTE order (L,R,C,LFE,Ls,RS) in your settings during import it will place them in the ProTools order(L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE) in the 5.1 audio track it creates.

    That would seem to be correct, as it works in L/C/R/Ls/Rs/LFE under the hood.

    I know it's a bit odd, but you have to wrap your head around the following: inside MC there is no SMPTE order. Under the hood, MC works in classic Film / Pro Tools order. The only intention for that channel order setting you refer to is to be able to tell MC what the channel order of the clip is. After that, it will route the channels as needed inside MC.

    So when you import, this setting does not alter the order in which tracks are imported, it just changes the way the channel order is interpreted.

     

    I set up the order to be SMPTE and when they were imported the tracks wer layed out in ProTools order. see the screen shot below
    That would appear to be correct, since inside MC, the channel order in waveforms and 5.1 audio meters is always L/C/R/Ls/Rs/LFE.

     

    Again, you can't determine the channel order in which MC imports, you can only tell it how to interpret the already imported clip.

    I just tried and imported a test file via File-Import, with 'autodetect' selected, and the channel order in the clip is:

    A1: Left

    A2: Center

    A3: Right

    A4: Ls

    A5: Rs

    A6: LFE

    This implies I should tell MC the channel order is Film / Pro Tools. However, your results seemd to be correct when you set it to SMPTE, so this has me puzzled.

     

    Can you please try and do the following: import the 5.1 group as you did, but set the multichannel options to mono. This should then result in a master clip with 6 mono tracks. You can probably easily identify which carries the center channel.

    Now this is what happens under the hood: MC imports the group in a specific order, which you cannot change. The only thing you can now do is tell MC that this 6-track clip is a 5.1 clip, and what its channel order _is_ (not what you would want it to be).

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  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 2:38 PM In reply to

    • jlomicka
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    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    Job has this right - the Pro Tools/SMPTE setting is NOT for you to say what you WANT.  That's there to tell you what the file IS.  It is easier to understand if you have numbered files, rather than named.

    If you have 1=L, 2=R, 3=C, 4=LFE, 5=Lr, 6=Rr, then you have a SMPTE file, and need to tell Avid that it needs to re-order the channels into Avid's internal order in order to properly interpret it as a surround track.

    If you have named tracks, Avid brings them in as internal order, Pro Tools order, so that no further re-ordering is needed to properly interpret it as a surround clip.

    IF you use these as a surround clips, you, as the user have no need to worry or care about what the internal order is. However, I recognize that's a big IF.  If you are keeping the material in descrete tracks, you are stuck with them in an unpopular channel ordering, and Avid has no good tools to resolve this for you.  The best you can do is drag them all into the correct places before you edit them into your sequence.

    What I'm getting out of this discussion a feature request for an audio source settings.  The ability to re-order the tracks in a source clip seems to me to be a reasonable thing to want to do, but it's not in there today.

     

     

     

  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 2:53 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    Jeff

    Can you make sure this gets flagged as a feature or do you want me to do it?

    Marianna

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  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 3:04 PM In reply to

    • jlomicka
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    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    I put it in as a feature request.

  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 3:09 PM In reply to

    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    Thanks for chiming in, Jeff and MM.

    Agree this would make a nice feature request. Also, it is quite unclear to the end user how MC imports/links to a 5.1/7.1 group, so it's relatively hard for the end user to then correctly set the channel order in the multichannel settings.

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  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 3:20 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    jlomicka:

    I put it in as a feature request.

    You rock and thanks for covering my back while I was out with Puenmonia.....  Your a great asset Jeff!

    marianna

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    marianna.montague@avid.com

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  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 3:45 PM In reply to

    • cmaeditor
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    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    I think you both are not getting the issue I will make it simple to understand. I have 6 mono tracks that make up my 5.1 audio mix. They are named in the following manner:

    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.C.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.L.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.LFE.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.Ls.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.R.wav
    project_LP_6trk_PM_072717.Rs.wav

    If I import them into Media Composer without any Multichannel groups set I get 6 Mono Master Audio clips in my bin all panned center. I can then export out a Same as Source Quicktime using Direct Out in the Audio export settings, I get a Quicktime that has six mono tracks in the same order I cut them under picture but no 5.1 channel info.

    If I take the same 6 mono tracks and import them setting the Multichannel groups set to Pro Tools which should order them as (L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE), I will get 1 Audio Master clip with six discrete tracks embedded in the following order in my timeline.

    L
    R
    C
    LFE
    Ls
    Rs

    I can export a Same as Source Quicktime or Wave file using either the 5.1 or Direct Out in the Audio export settings, I will get a Quicktime or Wave file that has the 6 discrete channels listed in the following order L,R,C,LFE,Ls,Rs in the file info or movie properties and that order will be correct.

    If I take the same 6 mono tracks and import them setting the Multichannel groups set to SMPTE which should order them as (L,R,C,LFE,Ls,Rs), I will get 1 Audio Master clip with six discrete tracks embedded in the following order in my timeline.

    L
    C
    R
    Ls
    Rs
    LFE

    I can export a Same as Source Quicktime or Wave file using either the 5.1 or Direct Out in the Audio export settings, I will get a Quicktime or Wave file that has the 6 discrete channels listed in the following order L,R,C,LFE,Ls,Rs in the file info or movie properties but the tracks will not be in the order, but instead in the L,R,C,LFE,Ls,Rs resulting in the C,Ls, and LFE channels to be sent to R,LFE and Rs instead.

    Exporting either Multichannel group out as mono creates just one mono track.

    So here are the Bugs:

    The ProTools and SMPTE Multichannel import settings are reversed. Resulting in the opposite order of what you set on import.

    Media Composer does not set the proper channel order when exporting any Multichannel order other than SMPTE when exporting a same as source file.

    Mid 2015 15" Macbook Pro 16GB Ram AMD Radeon R9 M370X [view my complete system specs]

    CMA

  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 4:03 PM In reply to

    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    cmaeditor:
    setting the Multichannel groups set to Pro Tools which should order them as (L,C,R,Ls,Rs,LFE)

    That's where keep going wrong. The setting has zero influence on the channel order in the import itself. It's a playback routing setting only.

    (for the record: Jeff Lomicka programmes the audio features in MC)

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  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 4:04 PM In reply to

    • jlomicka
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    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    I see what added to the conrfusion is that we put in a setting to VIEW the surround tracks in SMPTE or Pro Tools order, this only changes the order they shown witin the surround track, because people complained that they didn't like seeing their surround tracks in Pro Tools order.

    Where you went wrong is where you lied to Media Composer and told it your media was in SMPTE order.  From there on, nothing you do with this track will be correct.  The media is in Pro Tools order (because that's how MC interprets named tracks), and if you make a mistake and tell it the media is in SMPTE order, from then on, everything will be wrong.

    There is no bug here.  Media Composer is doing exaclty what you told it to do.

    As I emphasized in bold text above, a clip's track groups are you telling Media Compsoer what the media's channel order IS, not what you WANT.  Internally everything is Pro Tools order, and the swaps to or from SMPTE order only occur at points where the media enters or exits.  The timeline view is a kind of "exit" in this case, and the channels are re-ordered for display, but only if you enable it to display that way in the Audio settings (Display channel order menu).

    By the way, Quicktime exports of surround tracks are ALWAYS set up to be SMPTE order.  If you direct-out Quicktime, your surround tracks will be in SMPTE order, regardles of the order of the original media.  It is however required that that the orignal media is tagged correctly for reordering. 

  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 4:08 PM In reply to

    • jlomicka
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    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    Perhaps to further clarify, or maybe to add some more silt, if you have an actual surround sequence (not direct out), and do a Quicktime export, Media Composer will feed Quicktime a SMPTE ordered channels set, and Quikctime can re-interpret that according to the custom audio export setting in the Quicktime dialog.  If you pick a different set of speaker placements (such as quad format, or that format that spreads channels across the front of the sound space), your audio will be re-ordered and possibly re-mixed from the SMPTE surround space into the one you requested.  There are sometimes cases where this is desirable.

  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 4:20 PM In reply to

    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    Yyyy 

    pics not showing, see pdf

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  • Tue, Aug 15 2017 5:27 PM In reply to

    Re: 5.1 Track order importing wrong in 8.9.0

    Xxx pics not showing, see pdf

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
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