Latest post Sun, Jun 14 2015 10:03 AM by Job ter Burg. 18 replies.
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  • Wed, Jun 10 2015 4:05 AM

    • bellenbaum
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    Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    Would love some insight here... I'm in MC 8.3.1 and am making exports from 2 different projects, one is 1080p23.976, one is 1080i59.94. Export is quicktime same as source, 709. Resulting files are fine out of the 29.97 project, but the 23.976 files turn out with different video levels... looking at bars the black levels are noticeably higher/washed out. I know that this has always been an issue with custom QT exports, but same as source? And why is it different in 2 different projects? (The export preset I'm using is the same...)

    Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

  • Wed, Jun 10 2015 5:18 AM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    What codec?

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Jun 10 2015 1:18 PM In reply to

    • bellenbaum
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    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

  • Wed, Jun 10 2015 1:39 PM In reply to

    • bellenbaum
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    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    Yikes, total brain fart on my part. Please disregard!

    EDIT: No please don't disregard... it is a real problem. Thanks!!

  • Thu, Jun 11 2015 2:13 AM In reply to

    • hbrock
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    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    DNx same as source exports won't have video levels remapped to RGB levels like ProRes files will when viewed via QuickTime.  If you want them to look "good" on a computer, set the export to RGB rather than 601/709.  "Same as Source" means use the same codec, you still need to specify how to map levels.

    MacPro, MacBook Pro and a Cube (masquerading as a kleenex dispenser). [view my complete system specs]

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  • Fri, Jun 12 2015 11:41 AM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    I have never seen any difference betqween 601/709 and RGB when using Same as Source. I think SAS means what it says and the levels come out as they are in the edit. Just tested again here. Both the same. I think that the RGB and 601/709 should be greyed out in the Export window when choosing SAS. They do have an effect on a custom export.

    iMac i5 27", 40GB RAM, OS 10.14.6 with Symphony 2020.6, BlackMagic mini monitor. MacBook Pro, 16GB RAM with OS 10.14.6 with MC 2018.12.12 and BMD... [view my complete system specs]

    With best wishes, Roger Shufflebottom

    ACI, Technical Tutor (Editing), Faculty of Media and Communication, Bournemouth University, Dorset, UK

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  • Fri, Jun 12 2015 3:05 PM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    Roger Shufflebottom:
    I have never seen any difference betqween 601/709 and RGB when using Same as Source. I think SAS means what it says and the levels come out as they are in the edit. Just tested again here. Both the same. I think that the RGB and 601/709 should be greyed out in the Export window when choosing SAS. They do have an effect on a custom export.

    That's not true when dealing with Avid codecs.  The color levels can be mapped either way.  With ProRes, youy won't notice a difference, because QT Player remaps them for you automatically.  But with Avid codecs, it is 100% critical you export 709/RGB so you get what you want.

     

    Symphony v2019 | OS 10.13.6 • Nitris DX • 12-core MacPro (Mid 2012) • 36 GB RAM • Facilis Terrablock 24EX [view my complete system specs]

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  • Fri, Jun 12 2015 4:27 PM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    Well, I don't see that. If I have a sequence with correct bars (I'm in UK so full bars imported correctly with 16-235 levels) and export using Same as Source, there is absolutely no difference in the levels in the resulting files, whther RGB or 601/709 is selected. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning. OTOH, doing a custom ProRes export, and AMA linking the resulting files back to Media Composer, the expected difference in levels can be seen. I'm supposed to teach this stuff and I see an illogicality here!

    iMac i5 27", 40GB RAM, OS 10.14.6 with Symphony 2020.6, BlackMagic mini monitor. MacBook Pro, 16GB RAM with OS 10.14.6 with MC 2018.12.12 and BMD... [view my complete system specs]

    With best wishes, Roger Shufflebottom

    ACI, Technical Tutor (Editing), Faculty of Media and Communication, Bournemouth University, Dorset, UK

  • Fri, Jun 12 2015 4:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    601/709 vs RGB does matter for Same As Source. Not necessarily with ProRes but absolutely with DNxHD. My whitepaper in import/export shows the tests results and clearly show the difference.

    The thing is, though, that in a SAS export from DNxHD, the levels are not remapped in the file, but only when displayed in QT player 7. If you import them back into Avid, there should be no difference, since the file itself still contains the full 0-255 range (but QT7 is told to remap the 16-235 part of that to 0-255 when displaying on your computer).

    If you do a Custom export, then the remap is baked in, indeed.

    Are you checking these in QT7, Roger? If in VLC, that likely does not respond to the changed QT display setting. If in QT10, that is not QT and will do an automatic conversion to Apple H264 (with gamma du jour, so all bets are off then).

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jun 12 2015 9:18 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    Agreed.  It matters.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sat, Jun 13 2015 7:36 AM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    I was AMA-ing the exports back to Media Composer. In QT Player 7, I agree that the differeneces can be seen - thanks. Not using QT10 as it converts the files. More testing needed here!

    iMac i5 27", 40GB RAM, OS 10.14.6 with Symphony 2020.6, BlackMagic mini monitor. MacBook Pro, 16GB RAM with OS 10.14.6 with MC 2018.12.12 and BMD... [view my complete system specs]

    With best wishes, Roger Shufflebottom

    ACI, Technical Tutor (Editing), Faculty of Media and Communication, Bournemouth University, Dorset, UK

  • Sat, Jun 13 2015 8:44 AM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    Roger Shufflebottom:

    I was AMA-ing the exports back to Media Composer.

    OK, that probably is because AMA sees the actual DNxHD essence, and then bypasses QT player and its remap-upon-display function.

     

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 13 2015 8:51 AM In reply to

    • Kao-Tai
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    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    Interesting thread so far. I´m facing a problem right now that might be related to what Job said. "SAS exports with DNxHD result in a Metadata flag for either RGB or 709 rather than being baked in".

    We´re investigating an issues where QT Files DNxHD185x with Alpha reuslt in different levels if you import them or useing AMA. The files originate out of Adobe AFX and are Full range at start and get the RGB flag upon export to DNxHD185x. The interesting thing is that the "old-school" importer ingests the material as 709 (correct levels) no matter how you set the import options (RGB or 709). The AMA link instead links them full range with resulting illegal levels. So AMAing doesn´t seem to be a  100% proof for checking levels. This is, to put it mildly, disconcerting in my eyes. As these files contain an alpha there´s no way of setting the correct levels via source settings. It would be really interesting to hear from avid what the DNxHD "export module" really does. I mean it looks the same in all applications so I guess it belongs to Avid. Out of AFX you need to set the levels to RGB in our case in order to end up with a file that imports correct. So I take this as the RGB flag meaning not the end result but rather the originating color gammut. And THAT is really confusing in my opinion. I hope someone can shed some light on that.

  • Sat, Jun 13 2015 9:15 AM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    How about we all just quit Quicktime. Just kill it. Pretend it never happened. Cold turkey.

    Would anyone like to take a guess at the amount of hours wasted in utter frustration on this endless abomination?

     

    On a more constructive level, can you post a precise formula on how to reproduce this issue? Could you perhaps even upload a small test file? If we can get this reproduced, it can be escalated.

     

    I do know that the QT export module for DNxHD would in fact bake in a remap if you use the RGB button. The export module (in QT Pro or any other app) lets you set the RGB or 601/709 tick box. Selecting RGB means: my source is 0-255, remap it to 16-235 DNxHD. Selecting 601/709 means: my source is already at legal video levels, do not remap and transcode to DNxHD.

    If your source levels are illegal (so outside of 16-235), and you still stelect the 601/709 option, the illegal levels are all maintained in the DNxHD result.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 13 2015 9:16 AM In reply to

    Re: Quicktime black levels change on same as source export?

    That makes sense - so really, we need to know how the files will be opened and interpreted before we export. Yesterday I used Scopebox to check some files (opening the exported the QuickTimes) and both my RGB and 709 DNxHD120 exports showed up as 709 (bars 16-235).

    iMac i5 27", 40GB RAM, OS 10.14.6 with Symphony 2020.6, BlackMagic mini monitor. MacBook Pro, 16GB RAM with OS 10.14.6 with MC 2018.12.12 and BMD... [view my complete system specs]

    With best wishes, Roger Shufflebottom

    ACI, Technical Tutor (Editing), Faculty of Media and Communication, Bournemouth University, Dorset, UK

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