Latest post Thu, Jan 8 2015 8:17 PM by Job ter Burg. 17 replies.
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  • Fri, May 2 2014 8:42 PM

    • Krumm
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    Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Hello,

    Whenever I finish a project I export a ProRes Quicktime of the edit for web purposes. In the past, I've always exported these files at RGB color space and they have looked great whereas exporting at 709 had resulted in lifted blacks, as expected.

    However, I recently upgraded to MC7 and now my RGB exports are extremely dark and my 709 exports look great. This seemed liked an odd behavior so I opened an old MC6.5 RGB export and re-exported it (from the original sequence) at both RGB and 709. To my surprise, the MC7 RGB export is darker than the MC6.5 RGB export and the MC7 709 export matches the MC6.5 RGB export exactly. Here is a more visual representation:

    MC6.5 RGB / MC7 RGB = Dark 

    MC6.5 RGB / MC7 709 = Match

    Has something changed in the way MC7 handles color spaces on export?

    Avid NitrisDX * Avid MC 5.5.2 * Mac OS X 10.6.6 * Processor: 2 x 3GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon * Memory: 7 GB 667 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM * Terrablock 5.0 [view my complete system specs]

    Let it roll,


    Krumm

  • Fri, May 2 2014 10:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Is this a Custom export setting? Avoid those, as you will be at the mercy of the Quicktime encoder. Rather transcode or mixdown to ProRes inside MC, then export Same As Source.

    The QT ProRes codec is a dog.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, May 3 2014 4:07 AM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Job is correct.

    The best way to make a Prores QT is to use Same As Source.

    FYI - I have noticed that when you choose Same As Source, the RGB or 601/709 choice makes no difference.  Which makes sense when you think about it.

    But this does point out an issue with the UI.  If that selection really does not have an impact, then it should be greyed out.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.11.0 but playing w 2018.12.6|OS 10.14.x - iMac 2017 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sat, May 3 2014 7:08 AM In reply to

    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Actually, on most exports, that setting DOES make a difference. But the QT ProRes codec seems to compensate for the display of Rec709 studio swing sources on computer displays. And when using the setting with DNxHD, it adds a flag that lets QT player compensate (RGB) or not compensate (709) for the studio swing - full swing difference. But it only compensates the way the file is displayed, it does not alter the luma levels themselves.

    On graphics and non-native codecs, the RGB export setting does remap the luma levels (potentially clipping and crushing them).

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, May 3 2014 4:27 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    I was interested in Job's comment about the flags in creation of DNxHD files using Same As Source (SAS).  So I tested using the older version of MC I have on my Mac laptop - 6.0.5.  Here, things are quite different than they seem to be in MC 7.0.3, and not in a good way.

    A DNX file exported SAS in both manners ( RGB and 601/709) will AMA back into MC and levels be the same as the source.  But when inspected with QT7 the levels respect the flag Job mentions.

    But when I did a mixdown of the DNx file in MC 6.0.5 to a ProRes clip and redid the SAS export test things went bad.

    Both clips, when AMA linked back into MC, had levels that were scaled so that highlight and lowlights were clipped.  This was also seen when using QT7 to view the files.

    I took a look at Source Settings of these AMA files and it seems that the clipping had indeed occured and this was not just a display issue.

    So, I guess I would have to say that one has to be very careful about what version of MC you are using SAS export with.

    I will try to retest this on MC 7.0.3 just to be sure of my test procedure.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.11.0 but playing w 2018.12.6|OS 10.14.x - iMac 2017 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sat, May 3 2014 4:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    What you are seeing is the horror that is the QT ProRes codec. Try a Fast Import, should be correct AFAIK. Problem with AMA in v6 and earlier is that it uses QT to decode the ProRes. In v6, AMA-linking was not native. In 6.5 and later, it is native.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, May 3 2014 9:30 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Jef,

    If you fancy testing with some raw Prores from an Alexa there is a clip here:

    https://courtyard.livedrive.com/files/13181

    I would also be grateful if you checked out if it looks the same AMA or fast imported in 7.03 as in any other version of MC.

    I find the levels quite different.

    Sorry to highjack the thread, but it kind of about the same sick dog called Prores...

     

    Symphony 7.06 OS 10.9.5 QT 7.6.3 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona Lhi. MC 7.0.6 OS 10.9.5 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 32GB ram Aja I/O express, Apple... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, May 4 2014 11:41 AM In reply to

    • Marty
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    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    A friend of mine also had some color issues when exporting as RGB with 6.5.4.1 & 7.0.3 and was in direct contact with Avid.

    The signal was stretched too much, so that there was massive clipping when exporting as RGB Quicktime. 

    In the end it was a bug and became a bugnumber. 

    all different setups in various editing suites. my own: MC 2018.2, OSX 10.12.6, iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017), 4,2 GHz Intel Core i7, 40GB RAM, Radeon... [view my complete system specs]

    www.film-editing.de

  • Sun, May 4 2014 3:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

     

    Bloersch:

    A friend of mine also had some color issues when exporting as RGB with 6.5.4.1 & 7.0.3 and was in direct contact with Avid.

    The signal was stretched too much, so that there was massive clipping when exporting as RGB Quicktime. 

    In the end it was a bug and became a bugnumber. 

    Would be nice to know what exactly the issue and the bug number are. This is more confusing than helpful to anyone reading along.

     

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, May 4 2014 3:35 PM In reply to

    • Marty
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    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Ok, agree, I'll try to find out. It was on a Mac and only with these two AVID versions (OS didn't matter) and effected QuickTime Exports with RGB (I think ProRes quicktimes).

    all different setups in various editing suites. my own: MC 2018.2, OSX 10.12.6, iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017), 4,2 GHz Intel Core i7, 40GB RAM, Radeon... [view my complete system specs]

    www.film-editing.de

  • Sun, May 4 2014 3:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Again, HUGE technical difference between same-as-source exports versus Custom QT exports. A bug in one does not imply the issue exists in the other.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 5 2014 4:36 PM In reply to

    • Krumm
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    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Wow, thank you guys for all the attention you've paid to this. I ran some tests this morning and confirmed you findings that SAS is the best course when exporting ProRes. 

    One question, is the "flagging" of how the color spaces are displayed in QT tied to the ProRes codec? Why does the "flagging" exist only when exporting SAS and not through the custom QT export? (I guess, that's two questions)

    Thanks again, guys! It's been a huge help.

    Avid NitrisDX * Avid MC 5.5.2 * Mac OS X 10.6.6 * Processor: 2 x 3GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon * Memory: 7 GB 667 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM * Terrablock 5.0 [view my complete system specs]

    Let it roll,


    Krumm

  • Mon, May 5 2014 5:09 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    The 'flagging' applies to DNxHD. It seems to also apply to ProRes, but I am not sure the flag makes an actual difference with ProRes, as that QT codec (decoding it in QT player) seems to have its very own ideas about gamma display.

     

    custom exports don't flag, they remap prior to the transcode, so the remap is then being baked into the resulting file.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 5 2014 6:20 PM In reply to

    • Krumm
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    • Joined on Thu, Jan 8 2009
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    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    Great! Thanks again!

    Avid NitrisDX * Avid MC 5.5.2 * Mac OS X 10.6.6 * Processor: 2 x 3GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon * Memory: 7 GB 667 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM * Terrablock 5.0 [view my complete system specs]

    Let it roll,


    Krumm

  • Tue, May 13 2014 5:16 PM In reply to

    • Marty
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    Re: Avid 7 Export Color Space

    It was bug number # UDevC00183641, if it's any help.

    all different setups in various editing suites. my own: MC 2018.2, OSX 10.12.6, iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017), 4,2 GHz Intel Core i7, 40GB RAM, Radeon... [view my complete system specs]

    www.film-editing.de

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