Latest post Tue, Aug 28 2018 9:09 AM by Bruno M. 9 replies.
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  • Thu, Mar 21 2013 11:31 AM

    • knejmann
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    Relationship Color Correction interaction

    Hello

    I've run into some weird behaveour in Symphony 5.5.3.

    When I'm using both a Source Segment correction (green line) and a Program Segment correction (blue line) on a clip I can see that there is a 'hierachy' in that the Source Segment correction seems to be applied first - then the Program Segment correction. If colors are clipped by the Source correction they cannot be brought back by the Program correction.

    However the Help states that:

     

    Effects and Color Correction Guide : Understanding Color Correction Mode : The Color Correction Tool : Understanding Relationship Color Corrections

    You can apply a relationship correcton and a color correction effect on the same segment. This results in two distinct corrections. Your Avid editing application processes the relationship correction first, and its result is the input to the color correction effect. This approach differs from applying one correction on the Source side and another on the Program side, when your Avid editing application makes a single adjustment using the merged values from the Source and Program sides.

     

    But clearly the values are not mereged but applied one after another.

    Is this a bug in Symphony? An error in the manual? Or perhaps a setting that can be changed somewhere?

    I'll post some examples below. First the Y Waveform of the original image.


    Media Composer 8.2.11 (some with Symphony option) - Windows 7 - HP Z420/Z820 (Nitris DX), Lenovo W540 etc. - Interplay and ISIS7000+NEXIS storage - Avid... [view my complete system specs]

    Kåre Nejmann

    Danish Broadcasting Corporation - DR
    Aarhus, Denmark 

  • Thu, Mar 21 2013 11:33 AM In reply to

    • knejmann
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    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    Here Master Gain is set to 80 in Src Segment and to 120 in Prog Segment. Seems OK.


    Media Composer 8.2.11 (some with Symphony option) - Windows 7 - HP Z420/Z820 (Nitris DX), Lenovo W540 etc. - Interplay and ISIS7000+NEXIS storage - Avid... [view my complete system specs]

    Kåre Nejmann

    Danish Broadcasting Corporation - DR
    Aarhus, Denmark 

  • Thu, Mar 21 2013 11:35 AM In reply to

    • knejmann
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    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    And here the reverse: Master Gain is set to 120 in Src Segment and to 80 in Prog Segment. A lot of detail lost.


    Media Composer 8.2.11 (some with Symphony option) - Windows 7 - HP Z420/Z820 (Nitris DX), Lenovo W540 etc. - Interplay and ISIS7000+NEXIS storage - Avid... [view my complete system specs]

    Kåre Nejmann

    Danish Broadcasting Corporation - DR
    Aarhus, Denmark 

  • Tue, Aug 21 2018 7:53 AM In reply to

    • BenoitM
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    knejmann:

    When I'm using both a Source Segment correction (green line) and a Program Segment correction (blue line) on a clip I can see that there is a 'hierachy' in that the Source Segment correction seems to be applied first - then the Program Segment correction. If colors are clipped by the Source correction they cannot be brought back by the Program correction.

    However the Help states that:

     

    Effects and Color Correction Guide : Understanding Color Correction Mode : The Color Correction Tool : Understanding Relationship Color Corrections

    You can apply a relationship correcton and a color correction effect on the same segment. This results in two distinct corrections. Your Avid editing application processes the relationship correction first, and its result is the input to the color correction effect. This approach differs from applying one correction on the Source side and another on the Program side, when your Avid editing application makes a single adjustment using the merged values from the Source and Program sides.

     

    But clearly the values are not mereged but applied one after another.

    Is this a bug in Symphony? An error in the manual? Or perhaps a setting that can be changed somewhere?

    I'm facing this too (MC 18.5 & Symphony option), in a situation where using src & pgm corrections would come in very handy (hundreds of clips).

    Did I miss the answer somewhere ?

    What's the recommended workaround ?

     

    MC 2018.9 (Symphony option)/BCC 10.0.5/RED 5.6; BlackMagic Ultrastudio Mini Monitor (10.11.2.0); DELL Precision 5530 - Intel Core i7-8850H 2.6 GHz - 32... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 21 2018 9:27 AM In reply to

    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    This is the limitation of the current colour corrector in MC.

    Hopefully the new CC will address this and use the headroom that exists in the video pipeline.

    See point 1 here:

    http://community.avid.com/forums/p/184949/860024.aspx#860024

    Symphony 7.06 OS 10.9.5 QT 7.6.3 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona 3. MC 7.0.6 OS 10.9.5 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 14GB ram Aja I/O express, Apple... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 21 2018 3:26 PM In reply to

    • BenoitM
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    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    David Yardley:
    http://community.avid.com/forums/p/184949/860024.aspx#860024

    good, tx (if such good things are due soon, I definitely need to change my current laptop to be able to cope with new versions (more demanding) Stick out tongue)

    David Yardley:
    This is the limitation of the current colour corrector in MC.

    So it is a documentation error too (and an old, persistent one !)

    MC 2018.9 (Symphony option)/BCC 10.0.5/RED 5.6; BlackMagic Ultrastudio Mini Monitor (10.11.2.0); DELL Precision 5530 - Intel Core i7-8850H 2.6 GHz - 32... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Aug 21 2018 4:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    Pretty certain the documentation is wrong, and MC cocatenates the corrections and does not merge them, whatever the order.

    BTW Luts use the whole headroom in the pipeline, so you can stack them up with little chance of clipping.

     

     

    Symphony 7.06 OS 10.9.5 QT 7.6.3 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona 3. MC 7.0.6 OS 10.9.5 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 14GB ram Aja I/O express, Apple... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Aug 27 2018 11:07 AM In reply to

    • Bruno M
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 11 2010
    • London, UK
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    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    David Yardley:

    This is the limitation of the current colour corrector in MC.

    Hopefully the new CC will address this and use the headroom that exists in the video pipeline.

    From what I can gleen from the recent demos of the new colour corrector, they're just adding shape based tools (ie. power windows) to the existing toolset. I'm not convinced there's much change to the rest of the underlying code, so those of us that are expecting noise reduction tools/sat v hue etc may be somewhat disappointed. It's also not clear if these new tools apply to the standard CC tool or the Symphony colour corrector (or both).

    I'm willing to bet the current source/program segment interaction will remain the same. I'm also betting that the interaction with the Artist Color panel will remain unchanged - that is, hopelessly laggy to the point of unusability!

    Have a look at these recent demos of the new features and make your own mind up...

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfCUwej6kts

    The relevent section starts at about 27 mins in.

     

    Also an additional video from the NAB stand showing the new features including the Global DVE.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4oLkkTxhu4

     

    I froze the videos on the close-ups to get a good look at the interface, and most of the tabs seem to be the same as before.

    Whilst there's no denying the Symphony CC tool is 'good enough' for basic grading tasks, the only real option for a fully featured colour tool (if you want to stay inside MC) is to use the Baselight plugin.

     

     

    HP Z800, HP8760, SonnetFusion RAID, Mojo DX, Symphony 8.10, JVC DTV1910 HD tube monitor, HP Dreamcolor, Avid Artist Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Aug 27 2018 12:00 PM In reply to

    • knejmann
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    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    Bruno M:
    I'm also betting that the interaction with the Artist Color panel will remain unchanged - that is, hopelessly laggy to the point of unusability!

    The release notes for version 2018.2 states that "With this release, you will see improved responsiveness of the Artist Color Control Surface." I hope that's true but I haven't had a chance to try it (source http://resources.avid.com/SupportFiles/attach/WhatsNew_MediaComposer_v18.2.pdf)

    On the other hand Artist Color is nearing it's end of life date (https://community.avid.com/forums/t/183201.aspx) with no other solutions announced yet. I hope that good third party hardware support is coming soon - fingers crossed :->

    Media Composer 8.2.11 (some with Symphony option) - Windows 7 - HP Z420/Z820 (Nitris DX), Lenovo W540 etc. - Interplay and ISIS7000+NEXIS storage - Avid... [view my complete system specs]

    Kåre Nejmann

    Danish Broadcasting Corporation - DR
    Aarhus, Denmark 

  • Tue, Aug 28 2018 9:09 AM In reply to

    • Bruno M
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 11 2010
    • London, UK
    • Posts 527
    • Points 6,695

    Re: Relationship Color Correction interaction

    knejmann:
    The release notes for version 2018.2 states that "With this release, you will see improved responsiveness of the Artist Color Control Surface." I hope that's true but I haven't had a chance to try it

    Yes, I'd read that too. Anyone able to confirm this is indeed true?

    I'm on 8.10 and reluctant to upgrade to any of the 2018 versions as there seems to be lots of bugs being reported by users who have upgraded.

    knejmann:
    On the other hand Artist Color is nearing it's end of life date (https://community.avid.com/forums/t/183201.aspx) with no other solutions announced yet. I hope that good third party hardware support is coming soon

    Marianna Montague recently said...

    "I do know that product management is lookign at options for the future in regards to the Artist Series of controllers".

    What this means is anyone's guess. Looking at Avid's recent wave of Artist hardware releases, I'm willing to bet that they're going to get a company like Blackmagic to build something for them. Maybe something like their range of panels for Resolve? Probably not that difficult to port across to MC. Then it's just a matter of sticking on an Avid logo, altering the firmware so that only these versions will talk to Media Composer and charging a few hundred dollars more!

     

     

    HP Z800, HP8760, SonnetFusion RAID, Mojo DX, Symphony 8.10, JVC DTV1910 HD tube monitor, HP Dreamcolor, Avid Artist Color [view my complete system specs]
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