Latest post Fri, Mar 27 2015 6:51 PM by Marianna. 128 replies.
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  • Sun, Sep 16 2012 8:56 PM In reply to

    • Strypes
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Hope your mom is feeling better, Marianna.

    My take on this is the price is that it is not structured correctly. Based on the existing pricing scheme, where the .5 upgrade costs $500, and a 1.0 or greater upgrade costs $600, should MC6 users skip the upgrade to 6.5 and wait for 7, they save $400. 

    I believe many users do want to upgrade and stay current, which is why we have this this 6 page thread on the Avid forums, but the pricing system discourages that. Sure, upgrade only if you need the bells and whistles. But as a company, doesn't Avid want everyone to stay current? Won't having a better structured pricing system that makes financial sense for users to stay current present a situation where both Avid and customers win? (eg. $200-300 for a .5 upgrade, $500 for a 1.0 upgrade and $800 for a 1.5 or greater upgrade). Customers that do not upgrade regularly, do so at their own detriment, as they will need the new bells and whistles eventually.

    Users upgrade for 2 reasons- 1) if there are significant advantages for upgrading. Eg. if the new release significantly helps and speeds up their workflows, preferably if there is something they need now; and 2) if the price encourages upgrades.

    Steve Jobs once mentioned that one of Apple's fundamental strategy is to price products aggressively and go for volume. A better pricing scheme will go a long way towards that.

    Regarding the bugs... MC6 is the first 64 bit version of Avid. Premiere went through that about 2 years ago in CS5, FCP is going through that in FCP X. The first 64 bit re-write is usually prone to a lot of software bugs. Then there is Avid's new support for 3rd party IOs. Always tricky. It is unfair to expect a bug free software in the first version of a rewrite. Also, there has not been a single bug free version of any software. The best anyone can expect is not to have any major showstopping bugs. That said, I hope they find a way to speed up the drawing of waveforms in MC.

  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 5:55 AM In reply to

    • Glans
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    I think it's pretty simple and obvious why this thread and question about the price exist; the Avid pricing doesn't follow how the rest of the world handles and bill software upgrades. Look at how much other companies have lowered their prices and if they do charge alot for a .5 upgrade it's mostly because it's a major update. This update isn't major, there are features that came with the 6.0.3 patch, like the ability to switch off hardware. This update isn't even close to a good reason for it's price, people feel ripped off because this update with new fancy features still holds a lot of unsolved problems that never seem to get fixed. While the rest of the world march on with new technology and innovation, Avid charge too much for too little and under an unreasonable structure of pricing that make us save 400 USD by just skipping this version.

    And because there are so many major unsolved problems with version 6.0, people don't trust Avid to deliver. All the fancy bright lights of the 6.0 version, marketed as the faster and improved MC with 64bit, just made us realise that we payed a lot for something that wasn't there.

    If Avid want's to keep customers, they really need to look at how they compare to others. If FCPX hadn't been such a bad follow up to Final Cut, then I would have garantueed that almost everyone would have gone over to FCP. Avid was saved by Apple screwing up...     so what happens if Apple do something right again? Or like what happens now, when Adobe is stepping up and making Premiere be more and more of THE choice for professional editors?

    I've been a pro Avid supporter for many years and while the software is indeed improving (although not fixing serious issues), things like this really just makes me wanna switch to something else, even if it's gonna demand me learning a new software from the ground up.

     

    Strypes:
    Regarding the bugs... MC6 is the first 64 bit version of Avid. Premiere went through that about 2 years ago in CS5, FCP is going through that in FCP X. The first 64 bit re-write is usually prone to a lot of software bugs. Then there is Avid's new support for 3rd party IOs. Always tricky. It is unfair to expect a bug free software in the first version of a rewrite. Also, there has not been a single bug free version of any software. The best anyone can expect is not to have any major showstopping bugs. That said, I hope they find a way to speed up the drawing of waveforms in MC.

     

    The hardware lag and tearing of full screen video are major show-stopping bugs. If you ever edit something with a director you would understand that. The 64bit worked with Adobes system, it's not even noticable with Avid. The third party I/O problems are right in front of them and has been since a year back, they haven't fixed those issues. Many can't use their hardware because of this issue, many just went back to 5.5 just to be able to. And they think we are gonna pay for this upgrade when this issue isn't even fixed yet?

    * Intel core i7 (3,7 Ghz), 16gb RAM, GeForce GTX 580 3gb - workstation. * Macbook Pro Retina 15 (late 2013) 16gb Ram - Laptop * DeckLink Extreme3D with... [view my complete system specs]

    64 bit, GPU acceleration, better AMA, better exports with GPU acceleration, better grading with true secondary and lift gamma gain, higher resolutions (4K, 5K etc.) and a video stream online (for directors being far away on the phone or skype).

    That would blow ANY competition away and it will be future-proof MC for a long time.

  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 9:38 AM In reply to

    • Strypes
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    >Or like what happens now, when Adobe is stepping up and making Premiere be more and more of THE

    >choice for professional editors?

    To be fair to Avid, MC is actually a very mature editing platform. Many of the new features in Adobe Premiere has been around in Avid MC for quite a while. Especially the dynamic trimming. Offline/online workflows is still next to non-existant in Adobe Premiere. And Adobe faces quite a big problem in creating offline/online workflows for PPro, partly because Adobe doesn't own a video codec and media container, and also, Premiere supports just about every format natively, which means that re-linking a quicktime ProRes Proxy file to XDCAM HD files just won't work, and also, there are cross platform codec compatibility issues. Multicam is still kind of quirky in PPro.

    That said, I do agree with how you feel about the bugs. I too, have a love/hate relationship with Avid. It has great editing tools, but yet it is plagued by stupid stupid bugs that aren't fixed for years. On my end, I'm not upgrading to MC6.5, partly because at work, I'm cutting on FCP 7, and for the short gigs I do at home, I usually require some degree of AE work, and also, PPro is proving to be pretty capable for those jobs. And also, if you manage the media properly, PPro integrates very easily with FCP 7, which is something I need if I'm passing a cut to the post facilities which use FCP 7. If the price of MC was lower or if there were more features that I needed, I may consider, but like I mentioned, the current pricing system makes it more feasible for me to skip this version than to upgrade.

  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 11:46 AM In reply to

    • Tiger_XP
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

     

       Glancing at the "views" on the Mac side I see lots of numbers from 60-300 with an occasional 1k and 2k. With this post nearing 5,500 Avid needs to pay attention. Yea, 5,500 is a drop in the bucket compared to actual users but it is beginning to stand out comparatively speaking. Add the 10,000 from the PC side and 15,500 is starting to become a mob! I am not sure how the site is setup and if each "viewer" is counted on each additional "view" but the numbers are starting to increase. 

       I would not be surprised if Avid had "new features" planned through 10.0! They incrementally add them in the "released" version regardless of the state of technology. This is a way to always have a "next" version. They ignore the "masses" yelling at them to look at the calender and other NLE's. No complaints if "each" version has that "yes!" (totaly subjective) item in it! If Avid is indeed paying engineers "millions" for their technical work, creativity and imagination (pertainig to new features) may need to come from the users. Of course fix all bugs too! 

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       It just may take the "occupy Avid" mentality to get their attention! 

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    MacPro 2008 3.1 | 34GB Ram | Quadro 4000 980ti 960| MC 8.10 | OS 10.6.8 10.13.6 | MOTU HDX-SDI | ATTO R644| LaCie 324 [view my complete system specs]

     

     

     

     

  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 12:05 PM In reply to

    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Tiger_XP:
     I would not be surprised if Avid had "new features" planned through 10.0! They incrementally add them in the "released" version regardless of the state of technology. This is a way to always have a "next" version.

    Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, under this theory, Avid has a number of technological advances for Media Composer ready to go, but they're holding them back intentionally with the idea of letting them out a few at a time in versions 7.0, 7.5, 8.0, 8.5, 9.0, 9.5, and 10.0?  

    So if there were, say, 21 new features sitting on the shelf, they'll come in groups of 3 over the next 7 x.0 and x.5 releases?  Is that about right?

    Media Composer 2020.9 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Z-Book G6 17", i7-9850H 2.60GHz, 32gb RAM, NVIDIA Quadro RTX 3000, Windows 10 Pro [view my complete system specs]

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    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 12:19 PM In reply to

    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    camoscato:

    Tiger_XP:
     I would not be surprised if Avid had "new features" planned through 10.0! They incrementally add them in the "released" version regardless of the state of technology. This is a way to always have a "next" version.

    Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, under this theory, Avid has a number of technological advances for Media Composer ready to go, but they're holding them back intentionally with the idea of letting them out a few at a time in versions 7.0, 7.5, 8.0, 8.5, 9.0, 9.5, and 10.0?  

    So if there were, say, 21 new features sitting on the shelf, they'll come in groups of 3 over the next 7 x.0 and x.5 releases?  Is that about right?

     

    What a laugh. Just goes to show how way off some folks can be.

    I can speak from personal experience of having seen how MC was developed over the last few releases. How the code was chanegd and tested and bugs identified and fixed. How new features where included and refined to deliver what they needed to.

    Nobody knows Avids road map if one even exists (in fact I'd be amazed if it isn't a continually evolvng and shifting process based on the market place and competative products and technological develpments) 

    You also can't cound the view count of a thread as that relevant. Viewing a topic doesn't translate to an opinion. 90% of those viiewing the thread may completely disagree with the OPs view.

    If you look on this forum and other forums there are a realtively very small minority who post and re-post and reply to posts about their view and others post to argue a different view point. the activity doesn't equate to an opinion on the view. Ultimately the "view" of the customer base will be demonstrated by how many upgrade or not.

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 12:37 PM In reply to

    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Pat Horridge:
    Nobody knows Avids road map if one even exists

    Pat, without violating any NDA if in existance in your case. Are you saying that within the development of MC, Avid is not planning ahead beyond the next version?

    Without wanting to qualify this in any way, it does sound weird to me.

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own system: 1x Z420 E5 1650 16GB memory, 128GB SSD, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 12GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

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    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

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  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 8:10 PM In reply to

    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Jeroen van Eekeres:

    Pat Horridge:
    Nobody knows Avids road map if one even exists

    Pat, without violating any NDA if in existance in your case. Are you saying that within the development of MC, Avid is not planning ahead beyond the next version?

    Without wanting to qualify this in any way, it does sound weird to me.

    I'm not going to violate any NDA's either, but I can tell you that they always have more features on the to-do list than can realistically be coded.  They always shoot for the moon and ultimately have to live with the release schedule, make deadlines, etc, just like the rest of us.    

    I have never heard of a feature purposesly being held back for the reasons you're talking about.  

     

    Home: 2012 rMBP 2.6ghz, 16GB RAM, OSX 10.10.5, MC 8.4.1 || Work: HP Z400, Win7 Professional, MC 6.5, ISIS/Interplay @danielfrome on twitter [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 9:04 PM In reply to

    • Tiger_XP
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

      Here is something even funnier (laugh track included), if Avid is not stock piling “new features” maybe they should. Start out by having a place on this forum to post “new feature” ideas. Not a post that ends up 5 pages back in a couple of days. Not 1 idea that was on page 3 on 11-12-11, another on page 2 on 10-14-10. A page that stays on the front page. Some ideas will be from “users” they have come across “features” with other NLE’s. Some will be innovative based on individual use. I also laughed when I read Avid spent “millions” on 6.5! Seems to be lots of humor on this forum! And yes I read the rebuttal: “Our engineers are working very hard on the bugs and 7.0 to insure the reliability and stability of the software”! No argument there. Only when a price paid for those services was mentioned did it become questionable.

      How about this: 1. Have beta testing as a download for “anyone” that wants to participate. Place the announcement “Pinned” on page 1 on the forum. Also the Avid disclaimer will have to be agreed to before downloading. With a larger “beta” data pool more bugs would be found that should not enter that version. In this example “beta” would be all version before they come out. And yes the “beta” version is only good for 30 days. 2. With the “new features” post, users can see what “may” be on the horizon. And if this has the appearance of Avid telegraphing ideas then at least they may be enough to worry about. Of course some if not most of the ideas will be impractical if not impossible. But there will be ideas that could to be “game” changers’! Those that make Avid say “we never would have thought of that”? And of course imagination and knowledge is not confined to the engineers at Avid or any other company. At least users can see what might be as part of “new features”. There even might be less adverse responses when the users are paying for what they asked for and not a surprise! Now that’s funny!

    MacPro 2008 3.1 | 34GB Ram | Quadro 4000 980ti 960| MC 8.10 | OS 10.6.8 10.13.6 | MOTU HDX-SDI | ATTO R644| LaCie 324 [view my complete system specs]

     

     

     

     

  • Mon, Sep 17 2012 9:13 PM In reply to

    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    You can download it for 30 days and test it out for free.  At that point it's your call to upgrade or not.... seems reasonable to me. Every suites need is different.... I've got different edit suites running MC 3.0 all the way to 6.5.

     

    New Feature Requests:

    http://community.avid.com/forums/44.aspx

     

    Beta Tester Application:

    http://www.avid.com/US/resources/beta-programs

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  • Tue, Sep 18 2012 2:18 AM In reply to

    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Maybe I can add some finality to close out the thread.

    We don't stock pile features.  It's a nice thought, but the market is too competitive to have features sitting on a shelf waiting for years.  I wish I were so lucky.  Generally, engineers are not sitting in their cubes thinking of features (although sometimes engineers have some great innovative ideas). We have a forum for feature requests, which we read very often. We also visit many customers and discuss features before they are engineered, and we also visit customers while they are engineered.  We literally have no less than 20 inputs to product management for features including users, market research, innovation, workflow design, technology consultants and many more.  Feature requests start in product management, who works with product design and engineering architects and engineers to design the feature (product management and design are one department and work with engineering under the product development unbrella).  I've explained this before that feature development is a mix of customer requests, innovation, feature improvement, a balance of new users vs. old users and a million other things.   Also, we continue to fix bugs for many years to come in a particular release.  I know we are fixing and releasing 5.0 patches still and I think 4.0 too.  I'll check on that.  The much talked about I/O sluggishness issue is something we have been trying to fix, when we have a fix, we will post it in 6.x and 6.5.

    I think that about answers all of the questions and comments on this thread since Marianna posted.

     

    Dave 

  • Tue, Sep 18 2012 3:01 AM In reply to

    • duckyou
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Hi Larry,

    How are you?

    So, if I upgraded my two systems from 5.5 to 6.0 and 4.8 to 6.0 between August 8 and Sept 7 for $1.100.  I don't qualify for the free upgrade?  Only complete systems qualify?   Usually, you lose money when you wait.

    Chuck

    Mac 8 core, 12gB ram, OX 10.8.4, Media Composer 7.0, AJA IO Express or Matrox Mini Max [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Sep 18 2012 5:51 AM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Edited, wrong thread

     

     

     

     

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    Tomas 

     

  • Tue, Sep 18 2012 6:47 AM In reply to

    • YOP
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Dave Avid PM:

    The much talked about I/O sluggishness issue is something we have been trying to fix, when we have a fix, we will post it in 6.x and 6.5.

    I think that about answers all of the questions and comments on this thread since Marianna posted.

     

    Dave 

    Please find the cure for that. On CC mode it's a nightmare. My work became much slower with 6.X. Since the 6.X ver I Bought the BlackMagic hardware so I can't go back to 5.5.
    Good luck!!

    Yair

    System - Avid Media Composer 2020.6 + Symphony Option, HP Z840, ZTurbo 500GB for System,Windows 10, CPU E5-2650V3 10 Core, 128GB RAM, AMD FirePro W7100... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Sep 18 2012 8:00 AM In reply to

    • Glans
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    Re: $500 Upgrade Price?

    Dave Avid PM:
    The much talked about I/O sluggishness issue is something we have been trying to fix, when we have a fix, we will post it in 6.x and 6.5.

     

    Sorry to sound harsh, but we have heard this since almost a year back and there hasn't been a change although Avid released patch after patch. We paid for a software that hasn't been working like it was supposed to. This isn't a "small" bug for most people, it's a crucial part of their workflow, a crucial part of editing overall to be able to edit fluidly. And now Avid is releasing 6.5 and by the time this might be fixed we might be at version 7.0 and there there might be new non-working features in that version that we will pay for and realise they aren't going to be fixed...

    I'm cruious to how Avid can market a product and have such a huge issue within the key features of what makes an upgrade, not fixing it even a year later.

    If MC was any other product most people would have demanded a refund and never go back, but because many invest in so many other products around the software and create a big workflow for their company around it it's unpractical to do so.
    We are stuck with a software that we paid for that don't perform like it was marketed to do and we have been needing to explain ourselves to customers why we got this faulty software whenever we encounter these really huge issues.

     

    With a new version coming out with new features and a 500 USD upgrade price without the huge issues fixed from the earlier release I am seriously wondering what the priorities are. Avids core customers are people seeking stability and reliability fromt the software more then new features. If Avid is trying to compete with Adobe "feature-wise" I would say that Avid is failing. "Features" are Adobes strong side, it's the features that make them becoming better and better, but Avid is no where near that scale of innovation in their software, Avids strength and why I use it is because it's reliable and stable. But now, when Avid seems to be focusing more on features and not as much on fixing big issues and Adobe becoming better and better on the stability-side, then why would I, even though I am a hardcore Avid-user use MC and not Premiere?

    Actually...   I don't anymore, I only use Avid at the post production company but I never use my own MC anymore because of these issues, I don't want to explain myself to my customers.

     

    * Intel core i7 (3,7 Ghz), 16gb RAM, GeForce GTX 580 3gb - workstation. * Macbook Pro Retina 15 (late 2013) 16gb Ram - Laptop * DeckLink Extreme3D with... [view my complete system specs]

    64 bit, GPU acceleration, better AMA, better exports with GPU acceleration, better grading with true secondary and lift gamma gain, higher resolutions (4K, 5K etc.) and a video stream online (for directors being far away on the phone or skype).

    That would blow ANY competition away and it will be future-proof MC for a long time.

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